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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All that being said, the new craze of leg locks has helped
Bjj and it’s better now than it was 20 years ago, but it needs to shift its focus back to where it started and sharpen that aspect, less it continue its mediocre success in the fight game.


No. Just no.
Look, a lot of high level fighters credit their wrestling background for helping them be successful in the fight game. But a lot of that has to do with the MENTAL toughness that you develop wrestling.

Wrestling is an EXHAUSTING grind. And there is no real technical shortcut. You just have to grind it out till you are tougher than the other guy. You lose more than you win at first, and you just keep going.

That means it is a great base for fighting. BUT, that being said. EVERY top 10 UFC fighter in EVERY division includes a BJJ coach in their camp or IS a BJJ black belt themselves.

"Mediocre success" Man, what are you talking about? Now, maybe people aren't getting dominated on the ground the way they used to, because now we are seeing fights where EVERYBODY knows jiu-jitsu, but especially among the lower ranking fighters, Jiu-jitsu is a HUGE game changer.

For example, the most recently aired season of the ultimate fighter included a woman named Roxanne Modaferri. A meh striker, with no wrestling background who wasn't really a top athlete, but she was a decent enough athlete, and her jiu-jitsu chops were undeniable, so she wound up in the final. And all through the first couple of rounds of the show, you saw whoever had the better jiu-jitsu pedigree almost universally won their fight.

That said, when EVERYBODY has a good jiu-jitsu pedigree, it's what ELSE you bring to the table that distinguishes you, and wrestling is a great "something else" to come in with.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Quote:
All that being said, the new craze of leg locks has helped
Bjj and it’s better now than it was 20 years ago, but it needs to shift its focus back to where it started and sharpen that aspect, less it continue its mediocre success in the fight game.


No. Just no.
Look, a lot of high level fighters credit their wrestling background for helping them be successful in the fight game. But a lot of that has to do with the MENTAL toughness that you develop wrestling.

Wrestling is an EXHAUSTING grind. And there is no real technical shortcut. You just have to grind it out till you are tougher than the other guy. You lose more than you win at first, and you just keep going.

That means it is a great base for fighting. BUT, that being said. EVERY top 10 UFC fighter in EVERY division includes a BJJ coach in their camp or IS a BJJ black belt themselves.

"Mediocre success" Man, what are you talking about? Now, maybe people aren't getting dominated on the ground the way they used to, because now we are seeing fights where EVERYBODY knows jiu-jitsu, but especially among the lower ranking fighters, Jiu-jitsu is a HUGE game changer.

For example, the most recently aired season of the ultimate fighter included a woman named Roxanne Modaferri. A meh striker, with no wrestling background who wasn't really a top athlete, but she was a decent enough athlete, and her jiu-jitsu chops were undeniable, so she wound up in the final. And all through the first couple of rounds of the show, you saw whoever had the better jiu-jitsu pedigree almost universally won their fight.

That said, when EVERYBODY has a good jiu-jitsu pedigree, it's what ELSE you bring to the table that distinguishes you, and wrestling is a great "something else" to come in with.


I see your point, so I'll elaborate. Lets start with "choice of words." Instead of "mediocre success" we'll say "BJJ can be more successful!"

The game has evolved and improved over the years. I think we can agree that everyone needs to know how to wrestle, box, and jiu jitsu themselves, yes? So in the sense that jiu jitsu is required for MMA, yes that's already been established with the old days of MMA as the evidence. The same is said for the other styles as well.

Moving along...

So now we've established a base- guys that are roughly purple belt level (or brown, or whatever) across the board. When I speak of poor jiu jitsu I'm gauging it against the average quality of fighter at that level and likewise when I'm speaking of jiu jitsu. Yes, these guys are elite fighters and grapplers, especially compared to regular blue belts and purple belts.

So allow me to be specific: when I speak of jiu jitsu I'm speaking of their ability to get a dominant position after the takedown (i.e. passing the guard). When referring to the bottom its the ability to move and advance position (be it a sweep or submission) often in spite of your opponents ability to hold you. So again, choice of words- rather than say "their jiu jitsu sucks" I'll again elaborate. Yes they require jiu jitsu to posture up in the guard and defend, but there is so much more jiu jitsu they can use. While being good there is so much more they can use to be better that would allow them to dominate their opponents and make them better fighters as well.

Now working from the bottom is a tough game to develop. The ability to defend yourself and minimize damage is already at a quality level. Even amongst jiu jitsu fighters good guard players are seldom the norm, so I'll say the bottom game is solid.

The top however? No so much. Very few are capable of passing a guard. Now as a fighter, this isn't really that big of a deal because you don't have to pass the guard to attack. As it pertains to being a jiu jitsu fighter on the other hand? Its practically where you'll spend the majority of your time in jiu jitsu. To spend all that time there and but not utilize it when you fight?

Consider:

No one had to encourage Ray Mercer or James Toney (or any boxer) to box when they got in the ring. In fact its kinda implied. Likewise for any wrestler when it comes to wrestling- I'm quite certain they're going to shoot. But jiu jitsu fighters tend to have a much more difficult time pulling the trigger when it comes to passing the guard in MMA.

What I'm saying is that people don't need to be encouraged to do things they're good at. The less you're attempting to pass, the less skilled you probably are at it and that's the one thing that is incredibly unique to BJJ
. I'm not looking for someone to stand up, I'm not looking for someone to stay in guard and punch. Are they using jiu jitsu? Absolutely they are- but remember I'm calling this "the norm" from which the argument starts. Starting from here is where my discussion about BJJ begins. So the next question is, how well are they able to pass the guard and how good are they at being able to sweep or submit? These tend to be the exception rather than the rule amongst those who identify as BJJ fighters.


To go on a tangent in regards to wrestling vs BJJ, yes I consider wrestling to be a better base for MMA, however I consider BJJ to be better for fighting. The difference? Weight classes. Comparing these two I think its easier for a wrestler to impose his game on a bjj fighter trained in wrestling than it is for a BJJ fighter to impose his game on a wrestler trained in BJJ.



So to reiterate what I've said before- BJJ is still better now than it ever was before, but call me a perfectionist. Are they very knowledgeable fighters that are using some of every part of the game (including jiu jitsu?) Yes. Am I being a harsh critic? Sure- but remember Im looking for an argument


I'm just as critical of myself too- for example when watching one of my matches as a brown belt I thought "hmm, the hips move well for a blue belt..."
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consider that passing guard is a dangerous and difficult, and as you point out, ultimately unnecessary, thing to do in a fight against someone trained in Jiu-jitsu.

Consider that, first of all, if my takedown game is solid I can often bypass the guard altogether. If I can't, then it is safer and more productive to just score points from the top and make the other guy scramble. Guard passing is risky. You risk the sweep, the sub, the upkick, or just your opponent getting back to his feet. For what? Usually a temporary improvement in position unless you are WAY better at Jiu-jitsu than the other guy, or catch him just right.

Even if I CAN pass someone guard, guys like GSP and Lister, and others, have shown that their are other options with a different risk/reward profile. Now in competitive Jiu-jitsu, Leg-locks have proven that they can be an effective alternative to guard passing, but as you point out, and others have as well, they are rather like Sutemi-waza in Judo, beautiful if it works, but somewhat self destructive if it fails.

Perhaps ultimately the counter to the "Dive on the leg" strategy is some basic defenses and a return to very old school positional strategy jiu-jitsu.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Consider that passing guard is a dangerous and difficult, and as you point out, ultimately unnecessary, thing to do in a fight against someone trained in Jiu-jitsu..


As said earlier, I don't expect to see this of non BJJ'ers. In fact it would probably not be the best way to fight someone (at their own game...)

Tempest wrote:
Consider that, first of all, if my takedown game is solid I can often bypass the guard altogether. If I can't, then it is safer and more productive to just score points from the top and make the other guy scramble. Guard passing is risky. You risk the sweep, the sub, the upkick, or just your opponent getting back to his feet. For what? Usually a temporary improvement in position unless you are WAY better at Jiu-jitsu than the other guy, or catch him just right.


I wouldn't say its "risky-" its risk only correlates with your knowledge or in this case I should say, ignorance. One risks the same when they sit in guard and merely try to hit just as well, granted the risks are a bit less. Nontheless, as one advances positional hierarchy into more dominant positions, one exercises much more control over their opponent. You're speaking from the POV of the guy that isn't the specialist though- if I were to say "its risky to trade punches on the feet" someone would probably state the obvious- "you're not a boxer, that's why." See what I mean? I absolutely understand the concept of "playing it safe" and "scoring points" but so many don't know how to get to a dominant position and if they do, don't know how to utilize it if they get there.

A brief example of what I mean- listening to people suggest how there are more submission options from cross side than mount in no gi. Not so coincidentally, the people who say this tend to have lousy mounts- imagine that. This kinda ties in with what you said next and my reply


Tempest wrote:

Even if I CAN pass someone guard, guys like GSP and Lister, and others, have shown that their are other options with a different risk/reward profile. Now in competitive Jiu-jitsu, Leg-locks have proven that they can be an effective alternative to guard passing, but as you point out, and others have as well, they are rather like Sutemi-waza in Judo, beautiful if it works, but somewhat self destructive if it fails.

Perhaps ultimately the counter to the "Dive on the leg" strategy is some basic defenses and a return to very old school positional strategy jiu-jitsu.


I'm not familiar with Sutemi-waza or what it is- I will after I google it....

But in correlation with what I was saying before, a lot of jiu jitsu fighters aren't as adept at passing the guard and getting dominant position. To top it off, they are often lacking in knowledge of how to use said dominant positions effectively. When you start to change the focus of the game for leglocks, this knowledge base suffers. People don't pass anymore when they can attack the legs. Again not surprisingly the passing skills of the lighter jiu jitsu guys tends to be very poor.

Pros to leg locks are often heavily in favor of the sport.
Cons tend to be shown in the fight

Pros of positional dominance are often shown in the fight
Cons of positional dominance tend to be shown in the sport.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's try and look at this from another point of view shall we?

Last night I was watching the most recent Werdum vs Overeem fight.
Now, at one point, I believe in the 3rd, with lots of time left, Werdum gets him down, and winds up in his guard.

Werdum undoubtedly knows guard passing, undoubtedly is significantly BETTER at Jiu-jitsu than his opponent, and was actively trying to work.
BUT, he was unable to pass the guard. Why? I posit not because he doesn't know guard passes, but because guard passing is inherently more difficult to do if your opponent knows Jiu-jitsu as well.

You mentioned it's like a boxer choosing to trade with someone, but I posit that it's not like that because there are 2 major differences to consider.

1. Overall, striking skill is still more inconsistent in MMA than Jiu-jitsu. Like I said before, they ALL do Jiu-jitsu, not all of them are Boxers.

2. It is possible to trade punches with someone in a fairly defensive manner. It is also possible to convince yourself, either because it's true or because you are good at convincing yourself, that you can take a punch. Not so much with an arm-bar.

These differences make this a less analogous discussion. Now, I agree that people need to be familiar with positional hierarchy, but a good definition of high-level jiu-jitsu is being able to achieve the same results with fewer steps to get there.

For example, the first place I was taught to hit an armbar from was a controlled full mount, but you later learn to catch it from guard, from inside half guard, and several other positions, all basically the same armbar, just done with fewer steps to set it up.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Let's try and look at this from another point of view shall we?

Last night I was watching the most recent Werdum vs Overeem fight.
Now, at one point, I believe in the 3rd, with lots of time left, Werdum gets him down, and winds up in his guard.

Werdum undoubtedly knows guard passing, undoubtedly is significantly BETTER at Jiu-jitsu than his opponent, and was actively trying to work.
BUT, he was unable to pass the guard. Why? I posit not because he doesn't know guard passes, but because guard passing is inherently more difficult to do if your opponent knows Jiu-jitsu as well. .


Of course. I'm not going to deny that passing is harder to do than strike from the guard. After all step one for both is posture up. To strike is easier at this point than to open and pass. All things considered though if the person on top really understands how to take space away and pass, there's no good reason not to.

I've tried to watch some of Werdums fights. I can find the one point you spoke of in the overeem match though. I have seen him passing the guard though that tends to be the exception rather than the rule and I can explain this based off of what I've seen.

First off I am ignoring certain things such as fatigue, pain, and "feel" of the opponent. These things can dramatically change the fight and ones strategy. Nonetheless...

Werdum in a guard player through and through. Often times fighters with good guards tend to be less at passing and it makes sense- cause they're always on their back. He's clearly world class with his guard and world class with his back attacks, but he leaves some space when he tries to pass. This is again compared to other world class black belts. I noticed this watching some of his grappling matches and his fight against nogueira (which interestingly I didn't know they fought again!). Compared to a Demian Maia he's much more likely to hit compared to Maia's pass. Now if he stay on top he wins so it's hardly a bad strategy especially if his opponent can't sub or sweep him as I'm sure overeem won't. If he opens and passes though he gets such a good position that he could end the fight then and there, or risk losing it. He could have thought he was winning so he'd play it safe- only he can say. It would be interesting if it were say the last round (and he knew he was losing) how he would react? Would he still hit or try to pass?

How does this happen? Well for starters he spends his time pulling guard so it'd be fair to say that's where he's most experienced. After guard is on the back. He knows how to really get close and take space away. Watch his matches and you'll notice something though. When he gets into any guard position he hesitates, albeit for a few seconds. Compare to Maia who never gives up the fight for his opponents hips. Werdum does it though and of all his positions that's where he goes the slowest and where he appears to be the "least" of his world championship Jiu jitsu.

Now you'll say that it's because he's got to respect his opponents guard but that's a partial truth. There is space to fight for from any position guard no different. Now consider opponents can also attack from turtle as well in the sense of kneebars and leg locks but that doesn't keep him from attacking and subbing from there like a machine. He rarely gets side or full mount which is interesting considering his pedigree. Look at Maia and jacare for example.

I only saw him in the guard of someone once in my video search and that was against nog. He stood up and backed up- that's not a "wrong" response but it's a hesitation to move forward and pass. Again there are several reasons for this that only he could answer such as strategy and fatigue, he was beating nog on the feet so why not stand, etc. I posit that if you’re really good at passing you’re going to want to do that to get to a position you can hit and your opponent can’t counter with a sweep or sub.

It is surprising but not terribly uncommon. Let me see if we can't come to an understanding on this. We would assume that if someone is a black belt or if they're a world champion the must know every aspect of Jiu jitsu but that doesn't HAVE to be the rule. You've seen pre bjj guys do takedowns- it's horrible! Even guys that are 3rd, 4th degree for example, yet some can be phenomenal once they hit the ground. On a smaller scale one can be a world champ because his guard game is incredible and he gets his sweeps. Hypothetically after getting the lead with the sweep, he wouldn't need to know how to really smash and pass because he's already winning! The same Dan also be said for guys with great takedowns. Hypothetically they could be a black belt world champ with the guard of a blue belt because no one is able to either take them down or sweep them. We can also extend that rationale to escapes. Some guys are so good at keeping people from putting them in bad positions (i.e. Cross side or mount) that their escapes are very poor quality. All I'm merely trying to do is show that one doesn't have to be the best to be a world champ. I'm using this rationale to argue my point in general and not necessarily Werdums Jiu jitsu. I couldn't find much on him on video so I can hardly claim to dissect his game. I am using him as an example though- you can see him winning a tourney and never having to pass given the quality of his guard, yes?


If both the top guy and the bottom guy do everything 100% correct, the top guy still wins 100 % of the time because of the leverage the position offers. Space is good for defense bad for offense so it's best to take it all away so your opponent can't use it. For mma striking on the ground is counter to grappling since you need to create space to do it. Again I'm not saying it's wrong I'm just identifying the extremes and I'm arguing this side of it.... Because I asked for an argument

Once you get ahead of the game when you're on top the only reason you don't pass is because you hesitated or messed up. In other words, the pass is yours to mess up. This continues when you get to the side as well- done perfect you'll advance to mount rear mount or a sub. I understand people can't be perfect on top but neither can they on bottom so it's just as well.

That's the mentality I have. Why waste time and energy punching from the guard when I can occupy this space and get more leverage? It takes no more time to pass than it does to punch, but the return is greater...(fair to say so too is the risk)

Tempest wrote:


You mentioned it's like a boxer choosing to trade with someone, but I posit that it's not like that because there are 2 major differences to consider.

1. Overall, striking skill is still more inconsistent in MMA than Jiu-jitsu. Like I said before, they ALL do Jiu-jitsu, not all of them are Boxers.

2. It is possible to trade punches with someone in a fairly defensive manner. It is also possible to convince yourself, either because it's true or because you are good at convincing yourself, that you can take a punch. Not so much with an arm-bar.

These differences make this a less analogous discussion. Now, I agree that people need to be familiar with positional hierarchy, but a good definition of high-level jiu-jitsu is being able to achieve the same results with fewer steps to get there.

For example, the first place I was taught to hit an armbar from was a controlled full mount, but you later learn to catch it from guard, from inside half guard, and several other positions, all basically the same armbar, just done with fewer steps to set it up.


1 can be an argument. By definition bjj is with the gi so it'd be more appropriate to say they do grappling with a bjj coach. I'm fairly certain people in mma on average are much more comfy throwing hands than grappling

2 is debatable too I've seen plenty of guys who along with thinking they can't be koed also think they can't be subbed because bjj "doesn't work."

But the final part of the meat I want to address. I kinda agree with you but there is more too it.

First it's not a question of "do you know the arm bar?" That's improperly phrased from a bjj setting. More appropriate would be "how well do you know the arm bar?" The assumption most have is that after learning a move you must practice it over and over. That's half a truth. You should also be refining it as well. If you've done 10,000 arm bars and your last arm bar at black belt looks like rep 1000 when you were a blue belt, you haven't gotten any better technically. You've just became a black belt at being a blue belt..

Now when I speak refinement I'm suggesting efficiency, something never discussed thoroughly in the bjj world. That can be another discussion altogether and I'm on an iPad so you'll have to excuse me at the time being.

So finally after we've completely refined our arm bar and gotten maximum efficiency the next thing is "when" to arm bar. This can take a long time, fortunately we've got our whole lives to do Jiu jitsu.

So to recap, I agree that you're correct, although that doesn't imply I'm incorrect. What I do is identify the two extremes. On one hand is the concept of classic ground and pound- a wrestler who doesn't know what the guard is. Yes dear god don't try to pass because you don't know how too. At the other end though is a true understanding of bjj and its strategy where ground and pound would be considered inefficient and a waste of time. Why grind your opponent down from inside his guard for 3 rounds when you can pass and mount (or take the back) and finish in 3 minutes. Everything other strategy is merely a combo of those two extremes I just happen to see way more favor towards the ground and pound


Last edited by TJ-Jitsu on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well sure you do. It is a much more failure resistant strategy.

There is something else to consider. Long term energy drain. If you try to pass my guard, and I am good at guard retention, you are at best, even on the energy expenditure line.

With no long term effects, assuming you are not successful.

If you just punch me, then even if it doesn't really accomplish much in terms of a knockout, you have scored, you have done SOME damage, even if very little, and you are likely ahead of me on the energy expenditure curve. You have also forced me to defend strikes from the bottom, a prospect that makes attacking from the bottom a LOT more difficult.

Additionally, it takes more posture control to pass than it does to punch. So if your opponent is attacking your posture, punching them is more feasible than passing.

I recognize that you are identifying extremes, but I am pointing out that professionals have a particular strategy for a reason, and guard passing has fallen out of favor not for lack of knowledge, but in favor of other, less risk prone, strategies.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Well sure you do. It is a much more failure resistant strategy.

There is something else to consider. Long term energy drain. If you try to pass my guard, and I am good at guard retention, you are at best, even on the energy expenditure line.

With no long term effects, assuming you are not successful.

If you just punch me, then even if it doesn't really accomplish much in terms of a knockout, you have scored, you have done SOME damage, even if very little, and you are likely ahead of me on the energy expenditure curve. You have also forced me to defend strikes from the bottom, a prospect that makes attacking from the bottom a LOT more difficult.

Additionally, it takes more posture control to pass than it does to punch. So if your opponent is attacking your posture, punching them is more feasible than passing.

I recognize that you are identifying extremes, but I am pointing out that professionals have a particular strategy for a reason, and guard passing has fallen out of favor not for lack of knowledge, but in favor of other, less risk prone, strategies
.


See that's where I disagree. I would rephrase. Guard passing is not required to win. As such there is a tremendous lack of knowledge not just in how to pass the guard, but how to even open it as well. The lack of incentive only encourages "safer" strategies.

In regards to energy consumption that's a valid point, but if you're good at moving your hips you're most likely going to carry that over to guard as well- hardly an efficient strategy. In fact I'd argue that muay be proving my point. If I can at least get to half guard I know I can hit without fear of being submitted, only swept or reversed. If I get to cross side no fear of either, only guard escapes. Even further when you get to mount where we can say the attempt to escape put the person on bottom in a very dangerous predicament. It's more the lack of knowledge on top than the skill on the bottom that's the primary reason for this. Again assuming both guys do everything right it still favors guy on top 100%

Otherwise I agree on all else...
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very long, but very relevant to this discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkBXzkD6tis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The whole concept of submission is made for competition. What is happenening to many grappling schools is the same thing that has happened and is still going on with many martial arts: certain aspects are being emphasized over others for the purpose of competition or sport.

The goal of BJJ or an other martial art in a ring is to win. The other person is an opponent who has to be clearly “beaten”, “submitted” or “dominated”. It may be called a fight or described as such, but it isn’t a fight. The other is not an enemy and there are timed rounds.

A fight has no clock and no referee, and the first priority is to finish it as fast as possible with the least damage as possible to oneself. There are no points or trophies to prove how that one is better than the other person. No time to waste trying to “dominate” or “submit” the attacker to show-off how tough one is and roll around on the ground until potentially unfriendly spectators show up.

Much like karate for sport and karate for self-defense, grappling should and must be different depending on the purpose for which it is trained. And the same way, the two types cannot and should not be confused for one another.


I disagree with the bold line above. It's often misunderstood. The goal of submission is not permanent injury to a training partner. What happens in a SD situation if no tap (submission) is respected or given? An arm that can no long hold a weapon or be effectively used to attack until you've had your reconstructive surgery and therapy. How about a choke that isn't release? That's death.

The tap is a way to practice devastating tactics without the ramifications without it.
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