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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Submission only hampers BJJ Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Man you guys are slacking.... there have been no discussions for a long time. Let me start a fire and grab some gas....

So virtually all tournies nowadays are submission only with no emphasis on points. A decade or two ago you used to hear people say things like "I fight for the sub, not for points." That's perfectly well and fine within the sport, but leaves a gaping hole for your practical applications (ie fighting).

No one in jiu jitsu knows how to pass a guard anymore, mostly because there is no incentive when you can just drop on a foot. IMO most lightweight black belts have the passing level of a purple belt, they merely have good experience doing it.

The problem I see is that sometimes position IS a submission when you're talking about practical applications. Submission is not the end all be all of grappling and fighting- its merely one way of winning. The other way is cracking your opponents skull.

This strategy that grapplers are developing now isn't helping them because it essentially is the complete opposite of positional emphasis. What we're seeing now is "fighters" who have no takedowns, no guard passes, and no good pressure. They're really good in one particular niche of the game, but nothing else. Compare this to say wrestlers where the strategy is the opposite- there are no submissions but dominant position is paramount. I'd suppose that's the reason why wrestlers tend to adapt better to MMA than your modern jiu jitsu guys....

Argue please...


I think the premise is flawed. EBI and FTW are not "most". The IBJJF and it's clones are the dominate force in competitions to date. The pass is still awarded 3 points and I have yet to roll with anyone of rank who is not a monster when in comes to the guard pass or who has bad pressure. Of course there are better and worse but that's wildly different than a lack of.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Submission only hampers BJJ Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Man you guys are slacking.... there have been no discussions for a long time. Let me start a fire and grab some gas....

So virtually all tournies nowadays are submission only with no emphasis on points. A decade or two ago you used to hear people say things like "I fight for the sub, not for points." That's perfectly well and fine within the sport, but leaves a gaping hole for your practical applications (ie fighting).

No one in jiu jitsu knows how to pass a guard anymore, mostly because there is no incentive when you can just drop on a foot. IMO most lightweight black belts have the passing level of a purple belt, they merely have good experience doing it.

The problem I see is that sometimes position IS a submission when you're talking about practical applications. Submission is not the end all be all of grappling and fighting- its merely one way of winning. The other way is cracking your opponents skull.

This strategy that grapplers are developing now isn't helping them because it essentially is the complete opposite of positional emphasis. What we're seeing now is "fighters" who have no takedowns, no guard passes, and no good pressure. They're really good in one particular niche of the game, but nothing else. Compare this to say wrestlers where the strategy is the opposite- there are no submissions but dominant position is paramount. I'd suppose that's the reason why wrestlers tend to adapt better to MMA than your modern jiu jitsu guys....

Argue please...


I think the premise is flawed. EBI and FTW are not "most". The IBJJF and it's clones are the dominate force in competitions to date. The pass is still awarded 3 points and I have yet to roll with anyone of rank who is not a monster when in comes to the guard pass or who has bad pressure. Of course there are better and worse but that's wildly different than a lack of.


That’s a fair statement. Did I mention I tend to think in extremes?

My statement still stands in regards to black belts below middleweight. You’re
A bigger guy, I’d really hope any black belt middle or above has good pressure, but many light guys simply give way too much space. There are a few exceptions but they’re exactly that.

My justification? Watching no gi comps and most especially mma where. Passing as a whole tends to be most successful with gi and least for mma with no gi being middle ground..
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Submission only hampers BJJ Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Man you guys are slacking.... there have been no discussions for a long time. Let me start a fire and grab some gas....

So virtually all tournies nowadays are submission only with no emphasis on points. A decade or two ago you used to hear people say things like "I fight for the sub, not for points." That's perfectly well and fine within the sport, but leaves a gaping hole for your practical applications (ie fighting).

No one in jiu jitsu knows how to pass a guard anymore, mostly because there is no incentive when you can just drop on a foot. IMO most lightweight black belts have the passing level of a purple belt, they merely have good experience doing it.

The problem I see is that sometimes position IS a submission when you're talking about practical applications. Submission is not the end all be all of grappling and fighting- its merely one way of winning. The other way is cracking your opponents skull.

This strategy that grapplers are developing now isn't helping them because it essentially is the complete opposite of positional emphasis. What we're seeing now is "fighters" who have no takedowns, no guard passes, and no good pressure. They're really good in one particular niche of the game, but nothing else. Compare this to say wrestlers where the strategy is the opposite- there are no submissions but dominant position is paramount. I'd suppose that's the reason why wrestlers tend to adapt better to MMA than your modern jiu jitsu guys....

Argue please...


I think the premise is flawed. EBI and FTW are not "most". The IBJJF and it's clones are the dominate force in competitions to date. The pass is still awarded 3 points and I have yet to roll with anyone of rank who is not a monster when in comes to the guard pass or who has bad pressure. Of course there are better and worse but that's wildly different than a lack of.


That’s a fair statement. Did I mention I tend to think in extremes?

My statement still stands in regards to black belts below middleweight. You’re
A bigger guy, I’d really hope any black belt middle or above has good pressure, but many light guys simply give way too much space. There are a few exceptions but they’re exactly that.

My justification? Watching no gi comps and most especially mma where. Passing as a whole tends to be most successful with gi and least for mma with no gi being middle ground..


I was actually including little guys in this as well. Buy the time you get awarded a brown or black belt you should feel heavy regardless based on weight distribution alone. I don't know any who don't.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Submission only hampers BJJ Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Man you guys are slacking.... there have been no discussions for a long time. Let me start a fire and grab some gas....

So virtually all tournies nowadays are submission only with no emphasis on points. A decade or two ago you used to hear people say things like "I fight for the sub, not for points." That's perfectly well and fine within the sport, but leaves a gaping hole for your practical applications (ie fighting).

No one in jiu jitsu knows how to pass a guard anymore, mostly because there is no incentive when you can just drop on a foot. IMO most lightweight black belts have the passing level of a purple belt, they merely have good experience doing it.

The problem I see is that sometimes position IS a submission when you're talking about practical applications. Submission is not the end all be all of grappling and fighting- its merely one way of winning. The other way is cracking your opponents skull.

This strategy that grapplers are developing now isn't helping them because it essentially is the complete opposite of positional emphasis. What we're seeing now is "fighters" who have no takedowns, no guard passes, and no good pressure. They're really good in one particular niche of the game, but nothing else. Compare this to say wrestlers where the strategy is the opposite- there are no submissions but dominant position is paramount. I'd suppose that's the reason why wrestlers tend to adapt better to MMA than your modern jiu jitsu guys....

Argue please...


I think the premise is flawed. EBI and FTW are not "most". The IBJJF and it's clones are the dominate force in competitions to date. The pass is still awarded 3 points and I have yet to roll with anyone of rank who is not a monster when in comes to the guard pass or who has bad pressure. Of course there are better and worse but that's wildly different than a lack of.


That’s a fair statement. Did I mention I tend to think in extremes?

My statement still stands in regards to black belts below middleweight. You’re
A bigger guy, I’d really hope any black belt middle or above has good pressure, but many light guys simply give way too much space. There are a few exceptions but they’re exactly that.

My justification? Watching no gi comps and most especially mma where. Passing as a whole tends to be most successful with gi and least for mma with no gi being middle ground..


I was actually including little guys in this as well. Buy the time you get awarded a brown or black belt you should feel heavy regardless based on weight distribution alone. I don't know any who don't.


Maybe I'm being too harsh of a critic...
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