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R5ky
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Joined: 27 Jun 2022
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:40 pm    Post subject: Taikyoku Shodan applications Reply with quote

hey folks, any of you have a favorite application of Shotokans most basic kata? any links to vids or resources would be helpful regardless of style, it be interesting to see other ideas. Im gathering a personal portfolio of the katas and their different interpretations for my own study.

best regards!
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I no longer practice those kata, so I don't have any of my own content to really help you out, but I can say that they can be pretty directly compared to Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan), and if you search for videos of application for those kata, you can get some ideas.

I would say that the Taikyoku kata really only consist of two sequences, each. One is performing an uke-waza, followed by a strike, to each side, followed by a spin. The other is performing uke-waza or strikes in sequences of 3 straight forward or to the rear. If you look at them in this way, there isn't a lot you need to work out. If you assume that the attacker is in front of you, then the first sequence is telling you to get to the side of them as you perform the uke-waza, then seize control of their attacking limb to follow up with a strike, and if need be, grab them and spin them around--preferably to the ground. The second sequence is telling you that if you fail to get to the side, you should still apply the uke-waza, but then drive the opponent back with the forward pressure of your techniques, and the kata has you practice them in a series of 3 so that you work the transition from right to left, and left to right.

Of course, there are many more ways to look at kata application, and you could certainly derive many more than what I've suggested here. This is really just a starting point.
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DarthPenguin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah to echo what Wastelander said i think any bunkai would really start from Heian Shodan / Pinan Nidan. That is where things start to crop up that might be relevant.

Taikyoku Shodan (we call it Kihon kata) i was told is mainly to get you used to punching with square shoulders and hips and transitioning to/from that into angled shoulders and hips with a gedan barai.

I think if you learn the Heian Shodan bunkai you will cover any that could arise from Kihon kata since it will all be encapsulated within it.
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Zaine
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a teacher who once insisted on finding every little bunkai application from the taikyoku kata series. He "found" a throw in the turns. He was a "bunkaist" in that he felt that every little thing had to have purpose. I disagree with that general philosophy, sometimes moves and kata are just there to bridge a gap in knowledge or technique. However, it was how he enjoyed karate and I'm certainly not one to yuck anyone's yum when it comes to their passion for martial arts.

I agree with Wasteland and DarthPenguin here. This is a kata that was created to help students learn how to move. I teach it to my kids (but not my adults) to help them get used to how it feels to move around and punch at the same time.
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aurik
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the surface, the bunkai for the taikyoku series would be pretty simple. However, as I continue to learn Sanchin, I keep getting introduced to new interpretations of the kata. So I think to myself, "If there are so many applications inherent in Sanchin, then the same can really apply to any kata". It's just a matter of opening your mind to new possibilities.

On the flip side of that, I've been told in the past that the Taikyoku series are not so much "real" kata as they are kata "primers", getting students used to the idea of kata - stepping, pivoting, blocking, punching.
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do tend to believe you can derive multiple practical applications for any posture or movement in kata, to include the Taikyoku series, I just don't like to double my work, if that makes sense? Here's an analogy:

Children learn to draw shapes before they learn to write letters, because knowing their shapes makes it easier to learn how to write letters, which they will later use to write sentences. The Taikyoku kata were purpose-built to be the "drawing shapes" phase of learning. Those shapes are absolutely all in the alphabet, and while you COULD attempt to write sentences with just base shapes, it would be missing a lot of material. The material in the Pinan/Heian series, on the other hand, is part of the alphabet, and is built to be used, like letters in a sentence.
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Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the most part, we don't train in any applications of any of the Taikyoku series. Instead, the Taikyoku series is more of an introduction of Kata. Please don't misunderstand, applications can be derived from the Taikyoku series, however, understanding basic movements is paramount from the Taikyoku series than assumed applications.

I do show what those applications might look like, nonetheless, in the keeping of our believe that no blocking whatsoever exists, we only receive said attack, the Taikyoku series as we train it is simply an introduction to Kata.




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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
While I do tend to believe you can derive multiple practical applications for any posture or movement in kata, to include the Taikyoku series, I just don't like to double my work, if that makes sense? Here's an analogy:

Children learn to draw shapes before they learn to write letters, because knowing their shapes makes it easier to learn how to write letters, which they will later use to write sentences. The Taikyoku kata were purpose-built to be the "drawing shapes" phase of learning. Those shapes are absolutely all in the alphabet, and while you COULD attempt to write sentences with just base shapes, it would be missing a lot of material. The material in the Pinan/Heian series, on the other hand, is part of the alphabet, and is built to be used, like letters in a sentence.

Solid post!!



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R5ky
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One is performing an uke-waza, followed by a strike, to each side, followed by a spin. The other is performing uke-waza or strikes in sequences of 3 straight forward or to the rear. If you look at them in this way, there isn't a lot you need to work out. If you assume that the attacker is in front of you, then the first sequence is telling you to get to the side of them as you perform the uke-waza, then seize control of their attacking limb to follow up with a strike, and if need be, grab them and spin them around--preferably to the ground. The second sequence is telling you that if you fail to get to the side, you should still apply the uke-waza, but then drive the opponent back with the forward pressure of your techniques, and the kata has you practice them in a series of 3 so that you work the transition from right to left, and left to right.


I wish I can visualize those sequences in real time as it sounds interesting!

If you have any links to videos that are similar to the sequence described above, I would appreciate it!


Nice comments overall, I think that it goes go to show that Taikyoku is most likely a "primer" type kata, most bukai videos Ive searched start at Heian series and higher, avoiding Taikyoku.


Speaking of Heian..

Bernard Bilicki made a bunkai series found on a French martial arts video website :https://www.imaginarts.tv/categorie-produit/experts/bilicki-bernard/

This one is from Didier Lupo (6th Dan), here is his Heian bunkai breakdowns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgxMHbIuHSA


The above bunkai vids are more appealing to me than those earlier cringe vids made by the JKA
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