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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Sport supplements are "tested" but they don't even know the effect half the time, andro, creatine, etc...biased by dollars. Same thing with the drug companies, if you think for a second that "testing" of drugs is not profit orientated look again."

Supplements are not under FDA regulations. You are correct, sport supplements are all about dollars. Clinton passed the diet and supplement laws which made it so that dietary supplements and herbs do not fall under FDA rules. Clinton also passed the alternative health law which makes it possible for people to get alternative health treatments, even though they are not tested. You want to talk dollars, how much money is being made in the acupuncture trade for virtually no overhead cost?
Testing and research is often flawed in many cases of supplements, herbs and alternative medicines. It sometimes happens in real medicines also. Yes, it is about money. Some unscrupulous people will make the test results come out in their favor. Real western science doesn't do this though. Double-blind tests do not lie.
It doesn't cost anything to wave your hands about a person and collect a profit. Needles for acupuncture are fairly cheap to manufacture for a huge profit just to stick them into people. Herbs cost little to cultivate, and look at how expensive they are. Now... you tell me, is alternative medicine a non-profilt business?

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Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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Chris from CT
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 23 Sep 2001
Posts: 168
Location: Connecticut, USA
Styles: Jung Ki Hapkido, Shaolin Kempo

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-09-24 09:37, thaiboxerken wrote:
"Western means in certain instances. "

Yes, western science indicates the need to produce the claims and to reproduce the claims. Eastern science tends to just see the successful results and not take into account the inconsistencies and failures. The answer that your link gives doesn't give a description of the evidence or tests done to substantiate their claims. Acupuncture is nothing more than the "snake oil" of the orient.


One of the websites I gave previously was the "National Institutes of Health." Just for a brief explanation of the NIH they had this prnted on their site...

"The National Institutes of Health was founded in 1887, today is one of the world's foremost medical research centers, and the Federal focal point for medical research in the U.S. The NIH, comprised of 27 separate Institutes and Centers, is one of eight health agencies of the Public Health Service which, in turn, is part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

The NIH Website is at:
http://www.nih.gov/
for more info on the NIH you can go to:
http://www.nih.gov/about/Faqs.htm

There you can understand more on what the situation is with acupuncture or any other medical modality you might be interested in.

Also on the NIH FAQ page is a link to:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/
Here you can see what tests are being done and also how they are being done.

To insure the integrity of testing the NIH uses the "Office of Research Integrity" who is also a part of the federal government.
Their Website can be reached at:
http://ori.dhhs.gov/

Yes, western medicine (the Federal Government) is looking into it. Yes, they have done testing and yes the Federal Government believes it is effective for certian ailments.

Take care


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Chris LaCava
Jung Ki Kwan of Connecticut
"Man is born soft and supple,
in death he is hard and rigid..." LaoTzu
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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some clinical studies show that acupuncture is effective in relieving both chronic (long-lasting) and acute or sudden pain, but other research indicates that it provides no relief from chronic pain.27 Additional research is needed to provide definitive answers. --
http://nccam.nih.gov/fcp/factsheets/acupuncture/acupuncture.htm#clinical

_________________
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Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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Chris from CT
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 23 Sep 2001
Posts: 168
Location: Connecticut, USA
Styles: Jung Ki Hapkido, Shaolin Kempo

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-09-25 07:05, thaiboxerken wrote:
Some clinical studies show that acupuncture is effective in relieving both chronic (long-lasting) and acute or sudden pain, but other research indicates that it provides no relief from chronic pain.27 Additional research is needed to provide definitive answers. --


Therefore, far from "Snake Oil."

Take care


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Chris LaCava
Jung Ki Kwan of Connecticut
"Man is born soft and supple,
in death he is hard and rigid..." LaoTzu
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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More studies needed to provide definitive answers.... Seems like snake-oil to me.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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Iron Arahat
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 846
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most North American Doctors see you in and out with no real "diagnosis" of problems..."take two asprin and call me in the morning" costs a person how much?

Many North American treatments are far from "proven" even when they are approved by the FDA.

Most doctors just want to "drug you up", rather than deal with the problem.

Even in Western medicine there are no definite answers.
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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Even in Western medicine there are no definite answers."

Hmmm.. Have you been vaccinated recently? I think vaccinations are a very effective method of prevention of disease. Broken leg? Cast it and it will heal pretty good. I had a palynital cyst, and they placed me in surgery and cut it out. Haven't had a problem since. CPR is a result of western science, I think it works pretty well.

Now, you were saying? Yes, there are some things that western science hasn't found answers for yet, and yes, we are looking. Western science is open enough to look at Eastern methods and test them. So far, many eastern methods are results of suggestion and placebo effect.

When it comes to dollars and cents... Let's compare the profit margins of "western" methods of treatment vs acupuncture/therapeutic touch/ Chi healing. Hmm... seems like acupuncture needles are the most costly "medical tool" there. Now, who's interested in merely making money?

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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Iron Arahat
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 846
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggesting that accupunture needles are the "most expensive" part of eastern medicine is ignorance.

Many people I know that practice TCM do not charge in the first place, other than maybe for the herbs. I have never seen a $1000 plus bill. Heck stay in a US hospital without insurance.

Look at all the drugs that have been found to be carcegenic, or have long term side effects, all "proven" by western medicine. I'm not saying that I disprove of Western Medicine, I am saying that your argument is faulty, as western medicine also in many cases is not "proven" as it is later found to be dangerous.





If TCM was so "unproven" I'm sure the government and the NIH would have given up by now...

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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If TCM was so "unproven" I'm sure the government and the NIH would have given up by now..."

There is alot of money that is made by doing research into these type of things. It's all about money. You state that the government and western science makes mistakes.... The research into TCM is one of them, in my opinion. Until double-blind test results show otherwise, I will believe that TCM results are solely placebo effect.


_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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thaiboxerken
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1270
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brain Kanbo- used to treat brain cancer/tumors Brain Kangbo takes effects in 10-20 days. 3 courses needed in general.
For large tumors, it is not suggested to supplant surgery. But it will greatly improve life quality while used alone to those who can not be treated by surgery.
To prevent recrudesce, another 1 to 2 course needed after tumor disappeared.
Cost, 268 per course.. recommended for 3 courses = 804USD
Clinical trials=235 malignant brain tumors that can not be treated with surgery take Brain Kangbo alone. 26% healed, 86% live above 5 years.
124 cases treated after surgery, 38% healed, 91% live above 5 years.

Kangbo Tea- Used to treat colorectal cancer/tumors Colorectal Kangbo is not suggested to supplant surgery completely. Although it showed great promise while applied alone.
When used after surgery, it helps to kill the remaining cancers and prevent them from reproduction.
Colorectal Kangbo takes effect in 20 days. Any patient who is healed is advised to take another 1-2 course to prevent recurrence.
It is made of pure natural herbs. Safety is hereby guaranteed.
Cost, 244 per course. Recommend 3 courses = 732USD
125 cases that can not be treated with surgery used Colorectal Kangbo only, 32 healed, 55 live more than 5 years.
115 cases used after surgery, 53 healed, 55 live more than 5 years.

These are just 2 examples of how inexpensive TCM is Wow, it's very easy to get also, just go to the website and you can buy these herbal treatments online!
http://www.orient-hospital.com

Oh.. I forget to mention, it's suggested to take these herbs IN ADDITION to orthodox western methods of treatment.

These herbs do not fall under FDA regulation.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.
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