Add KarateForums.com
tallgeese Celebrates 10 Years as a Moderator!
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Teaching Reply with quote

I am not a Jujutsu practitioner nor do I claim to be, but just read an article on another forum that states that a new rule of no one other than black belts can teach Gracie Jujutsu.

I find this a bit odd since I know a few guys that teach and are only blue belts and purple belts. That and it takes so many years to reach the BB level that I would think this would hinder the growth of the art in that you would be hard pressed to find a legit BB.

Have any of you heard of this? It would be interesting to see if this is true.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I saw something like that going around not too long ago. I cant completely comment on it because frankly I cared less than it...

Ive heard a couple of people say certain things like "this only applied in Brazil" or "it only applied to Gracie gyms." Either way you look at it, a belt is nothing more than someone elses opinion. What that means is there are some purple belts that can beat, or haven beaten black belts. We could also argue there are some purple belts that are better teachers than black as well. I've seen it, I've trained with them, and its not terribly uncommon.

That's the problem with jiu jitsu-there is no straight cohesive plan or definition as to what makes a black belt or not. Its all relative and even then its still someone elses opinion. Just as well is the suggestion that "only black belts can teach."

My only response to that was "your opinion is noted...."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes 8 years minimum to reach second dahn in the TKD school I attend. Second dahn is the first instructor rank... That seems like a reasonable amount of time to put into something in order to be qualified to teach it.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things that are important on this.

1. This was an announcement by the Gracie organization that is the governing body for BJJ in the state of Rio de Janeiro Brazil. You can't swing a cat without hitting 6 black belts there. It seems a reasonable requirement for them given the circumstances.

2. The announcement was that you must have a black belt present to govern a school. That doesn't mean you can't have lower belts teaching, just that they must be supervised by a black belt.

Don't know that I agree with this all the way, but it is a similar requirement to what we have in Judo, so... whatever.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In talking to my friend over the phone (purple belt) he seemed to think this was world wide and not just in Brazil. He also said it was a slap in the face of those that promoted the art via the Gracie Garage Rules.

I had no idea what he was referring to and did not ask as he seemed fairly upset by me even asking about this post I read so I had to look it up. Apparently this was a program in which you could teach and promote directly out of your garage (or anywhere really) no matter your grade. It was implemented to spread the art and to increase it's numbers.

From what I read blue belts and purple belts were the majority of their instructors in the US and helped spread the art and build it to the heights it enjoys today.

Maybe he did not read it close enough but the post I read lead me to believe the same thing. It did not state a certain country, more so it just stated it.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the announcement is given by a governing body that only has any real authority over schools in the state of Rio De Janeiro Brazil.

Jiu-Jitsu Federation of Rio de Janeiro headed by Carlos Robson Gracie made the announcement.

This is important because this organization is one of, if not the oldest, governing body in BJJ. BUT like with other martial arts, as a governing body they only have as much authority as they are allowed.

So far as I can tell, there is nothing they can do to a school OUTSIDE the state of Rio in Brazil.

And keep in mind this is a rule that they have HAD for a while. It has not stopped anyone in the US, including the Gracie academy, from doing their own thing.

People are acting like this is an announcement of a rule change, but so far as I can tell, there has been no reported change, just a reminder that in Rio, a black belt is necessary to be teaching at your own academy.

That said, if you don't like the rule, don't follow it. Jiu-jitsu has a LONG tradition of either ignoring or changing rules we don't like. It just means you can't be part of their club any more. So what? Rank in jiu-jitsu is given normally at the individual instructor level anyway. It's not like validation of rank by a governing body is really important anyway.

The ultimate validation of rank is your skill on the mat. I can typically tell right away when I get ahold of someone, what rank I have just grabbed. Even in no gi where there are no belts.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Well the announcement is given by a governing body that only has any real authority over schools in the state of Rio De Janeiro Brazil.

Jiu-Jitsu Federation of Rio de Janeiro headed by Carlos Robson Gracie made the announcement.

This is important because this organization is one of, if not the oldest, governing body in BJJ. BUT like with other martial arts, as a governing body they only have as much authority as they are allowed.

So far as I can tell, there is nothing they can do to a school OUTSIDE the state of Rio in Brazil.

And keep in mind this is a rule that they have HAD for a while. It has not stopped anyone in the US, including the Gracie academy, from doing their own thing.

People are acting like this is an announcement of a rule change, but so far as I can tell, there has been no reported change, just a reminder that in Rio, a black belt is necessary to be teaching at your own academy.

That said, if you don't like the rule, don't follow it. Jiu-jitsu has a LONG tradition of either ignoring or changing rules we don't like. It just means you can't be part of their club any more. So what? Rank in jiu-jitsu is given normally at the individual instructor level anyway. It's not like validation of rank by a governing body is really important anyway.

The ultimate validation of rank is your skill on the mat. I can typically tell right away when I get ahold
of someone, what rank I have just grabbed. Even in no gi where there are no belts.






Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Well the announcement is given by a governing body that only has any real authority over schools in the state of Rio De Janeiro Brazil.

Jiu-Jitsu Federation of Rio de Janeiro headed by Carlos Robson Gracie made the announcement.

This is important because this organization is one of, if not the oldest, governing body in BJJ. BUT like with other martial arts, as a governing body they only have as much authority as they are allowed.

So far as I can tell, there is nothing they can do to a school OUTSIDE the state of Rio in Brazil.

And keep in mind this is a rule that they have HAD for a while. It has not stopped anyone in the US, including the Gracie academy, from doing their own thing.

People are acting like this is an announcement of a rule change, but so far as I can tell, there has been no reported change, just a reminder that in Rio, a black belt is necessary to be teaching at your own academy.

That said, if you don't like the rule, don't follow it. Jiu-jitsu has a LONG tradition of either ignoring or changing rules we don't like. It just means you can't be part of their club any more. So what? Rank in jiu-jitsu is given normally at the individual instructor level anyway. It's not like validation of rank by a governing body is really important anyway.

The ultimate validation of rank is your skill on the mat. I can typically tell right away when I get ahold of someone, what rank I have just grabbed. Even in no gi where there are no belts.


Forgive my ignorance and not to keep this conversation going but I have a question concerning "grading given at the individual instructor level". So if a purple belt is teaching per the Gracie Garage rules. How do they promote their students if they do not have access to senior grades?

In my art only a Sandan can promote students directly, although in the 60's and 70's it wasn't uncommon for a brown belt or Shodan to promote their Mudansha students.

I guess what I'm asking is, I assume that a blue belt to brown belt would have to have a black belt of some level promote their students. If there is not a black belt in the area how would their students be promoted if they are cut off from the organization?
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Well the announcement is given by a governing body that only has any real authority over schools in the state of Rio De Janeiro Brazil.

Jiu-Jitsu Federation of Rio de Janeiro headed by Carlos Robson Gracie made the announcement.

This is important because this organization is one of, if not the oldest, governing body in BJJ. BUT like with other martial arts, as a governing body they only have as much authority as they are allowed.

So far as I can tell, there is nothing they can do to a school OUTSIDE the state of Rio in Brazil.

And keep in mind this is a rule that they have HAD for a while. It has not stopped anyone in the US, including the Gracie academy, from doing their own thing.

People are acting like this is an announcement of a rule change, but so far as I can tell, there has been no reported change, just a reminder that in Rio, a black belt is necessary to be teaching at your own academy.

That said, if you don't like the rule, don't follow it. Jiu-jitsu has a LONG tradition of either ignoring or changing rules we don't like. It just means you can't be part of their club any more. So what? Rank in jiu-jitsu is given normally at the individual instructor level anyway. It's not like validation of rank by a governing body is really important anyway.

The ultimate validation of rank is your skill on the mat. I can typically tell right away when I get ahold of someone, what rank I have just grabbed. Even in no gi where there are no belts.


Forgive my ignorance and not to keep this conversation going but I have a question concerning "grading given at the individual instructor level". So if a purple belt is teaching per the Gracie Garage rules. How do they promote their students if they do not have access to senior grades?

In my art only a Sandan can promote students directly, although in the 60's and 70's it wasn't uncommon for a brown belt or Shodan to promote their Mudansha students.

I guess what I'm asking is, I assume that a blue belt to brown belt would have to have a black belt of some level promote their students. If there is not a black belt in the area how would their students be promoted if they are cut off from the organization?


No need to ask for forgiveness. There is no reason to assume you would know this as it is not talked about much outside of grappling circles The tradition in most grappling arts is that you can promote people to the rank below you. In Judo this assumes you are at least a Sankyu, which is an average blue belt equivalent rank.

So Blue belts, in BJJ at least, cannot promote, but a purple or brown belt could easily. And keeping in mind, that if at all possible, even if they are running their own school, a blue/purple/brown belt should still be continuing their own studies toward black belt. It just means that once they are promoted they will have an advantage on the teaching requirements for things like professors bars. So they should have someone they can go to or bring in to do promotions for them. For example, my professor is part of Renato Tavares's association. Now, he is a black belt professor, so he can promote me just fine for a while, BUT if he needs more rank to do a promotion, he rings up master Renato on the phone, and we set something up.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could just be this guy.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXgEz6vDRFM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Jiu-Jitsu and Grappling Martial Arts All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >