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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I recall reading this as well.
However I still do not think that the Kata contains actual ground fighting techniques. Muto (Tegumi) yes. There are throws, take downs, sweeps and off balancing techniques (our description of Muto techniques) but I have yet to see someone show me the posture and then show me a direct relationship to Ne Waza.
Tuidi - yes
Muto - yes
even Buki'gwa (kobudo) - yes. Kusanku (sai and Jiffa) as an example.
Striking and Kicking (what some now call percussive impact) - yes.
Ne Waza - I would love to see evidence that makes sense but I have yet to buy into it and seem to think that it's more of a reaction of an earlier teacher creating a response to an element that is missing.
My study of and research of Tegumi (Okinawan grappling/wrestling), Jiao Li (Di), and Tuidi (Qin Na) has never shown me evidence that there is an element of ground fighting. The closest I could get to kind of seeing it is through some of the applications contained within Naihanshi in that it demonstrates holds and chokes and the like. This I have seen translated to ground fighting but in yet if this was the intent why then does the postures, when on the ground, not remotely resemble the application?
I wish someone could show me the error of my ways but I just have never found any evidence to support the claims that it is contained within the Kata or more precisely within the postures themselves.
Again if anyone has evidence of this I would love to see it. I really don't mind being proven wrong. I would in fact relish the opportunity to be proven wrong and learn something that I have yet to be shown.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Yes I recall reading this as well.
However I still do not think that the Kata contains actual ground fighting techniques. Muto (Tegumi) yes. There are throws, take downs, sweeps and off balancing techniques (our description of Muto techniques) but I have yet to see someone show me the posture and then show me a direct relationship to Ne Waza.
Tuidi - yes
Muto - yes
even Buki'gwa (kobudo) - yes. Kusanku (sai and Jiffa) as an example.
Striking and Kicking (what some now call percussive impact) - yes.
Ne Waza - I would love to see evidence that makes sense but I have yet to buy into it and seem to think that it's more of a reaction of an earlier teacher creating a response to an element that is missing.
My study of and research of Tegumi (Okinawan grappling/wrestling), Jiao Li (Di), and Tuidi (Qin Na) has never shown me evidence that there is an element of ground fighting. The closest I could get to kind of seeing it is through some of the applications contained within Naihanshi in that it demonstrates holds and chokes and the like. This I have seen translated to ground fighting but in yet if this was the intent why then does the postures, when on the ground, not remotely resemble the application?
I wish someone could show me the error of my ways but I just have never found any evidence to support the claims that it is contained within the Kata or more precisely within the postures themselves.
Again if anyone has evidence of this I would love to see it. I really don't mind being proven wrong. I would in fact relish the opportunity to be proven wrong and learn something that I have yet to be shown. |
I was referring to tegumi/muto as a separate practice, rather than a component of karate, in this case. I do suspect that there was some degree of crossover over skills, but I would agree with you that such things are not part of the kata, however. I suppose Unsu could be seen as having a bit, with the drop to the floor and kicking up, but that's about it. There are a few examples of techniques done on the ground, such as can be seen in Itoman Morinobu's book, or even in the original printings of Funakoshi's. They aren't associated with kata, for the most part, though.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Yes I recall reading this as well.
However I still do not think that the Kata contains actual ground fighting techniques. Muto (Tegumi) yes. There are throws, take downs, sweeps and off balancing techniques (our description of Muto techniques) but I have yet to see someone show me the posture and then show me a direct relationship to Ne Waza.
Tuidi - yes
Muto - yes
even Buki'gwa (kobudo) - yes. Kusanku (sai and Jiffa) as an example.
Striking and Kicking (what some now call percussive impact) - yes.
Ne Waza - I would love to see evidence that makes sense but I have yet to buy into it and seem to think that it's more of a reaction of an earlier teacher creating a response to an element that is missing.
My study of and research of Tegumi (Okinawan grappling/wrestling), Jiao Li (Di), and Tuidi (Qin Na) has never shown me evidence that there is an element of ground fighting. The closest I could get to kind of seeing it is through some of the applications contained within Naihanshi in that it demonstrates holds and chokes and the like. This I have seen translated to ground fighting but in yet if this was the intent why then does the postures, when on the ground, not remotely resemble the application?
I wish someone could show me the error of my ways but I just have never found any evidence to support the claims that it is contained within the Kata or more precisely within the postures themselves.
Again if anyone has evidence of this I would love to see it. I really don't mind being proven wrong. I would in fact relish the opportunity to be proven wrong and learn something that I have yet to be shown. |
I was referring to tegumi/muto as a separate practice, rather than a component of karate, in this case. I do suspect that there was some degree of crossover over skills, but I would agree with you that such things are not part of the kata, however. I suppose Unsu could be seen as having a bit, with the drop to the floor and kicking up, but that's about it. There are a few examples of techniques done on the ground, such as can be seen in Itoman Morinobu's book, or even in the original printings of Funakoshi's. They aren't associated with kata, for the most part, though. |
I agree. We actually practice some Ti techniques that are also not found within the Kata. So I get your point that it may be a separate component of an art that was passed down rather than contained directly within the art.
I guess that light at the end of the tunnel isn't coming today. Thanks for your input and knowledge.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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