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Kickbutt
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 910
Location: North Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick thought regarding evolution:

The Human Genome Project - this will enable us to know if someone, through their genetics is suseptible to ie. cancer, mental disorders, etc, and gives us the power of "God" as it were to be able to create life as we see fit, thus controlling our own evolution...
I am very interested in hearing your thoughts about this from a religious standpoint (especially Tae and Ken, as I've found your debates to be quite informative). Ouss.

Lori

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Jennifer
White Belt
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Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angus, I'm never offended when someone praises my dad.

Certainly one could consider that we're programmed by our environment, but like most other topics there are arguments to the contrary. My brother and I were raised excatly the same way and yet our personalities are almost total opposites. I'm shy - he's not shy in any conceivable way. I'm quiet - he's loud, I'm a ponderer - he's impulsive. Our beliefs on morality and self-conduct are radically different. Both of our view points differ from our parents views. I think one can choose to learn, or not, from one's social environment. If one can identify one's behavior, then one can alter it. If someone comes from an abusive home but doesn't want to be abusive, that person can learn to change those behavioral tendencies. I think we're all influenced by our environment as a whole, but I don't feel that we're slaves to it.

I'm sorry, I just can't accept that things like mental retardation or illnesses that produce unwarranted violent behavior to be persons on a higher plain of consciousness.
I've had quite a lot of difficulty w/the Buddhist belief of eliminating desire. I, too, feel that w/it's elimination goes many of the beautiful things in life, namely love and all of it's many virtues. I suspect that I'm not understanding it in it's proper context.

Thanks for making a complicated topic more complex, Lori.

I generally try to present things in an academic light. I don't always express my personal or complete opinion, but I just can't approach the Genome project in an unemotional way. I'm a deeply spiritual person and I really do feel that Man trying to be God will bring Hell on Earth. If scientists are successfully able to manipulate genetics, will the products of their efforts still contain a soul? That's the question that prompted Mary Shelley to write Frankenstein, and we're still not any closer to an answer.
-Jennifer
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Karateka
Red Belt
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Joined: 22 Jun 2001
Posts: 786
Location: North Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can you not believe that a person with a mental deficiancy is on a higher plain of thought. True it may lead to violent behaviour but what I meant by a different plain was just of a different way of thinking. He may very well be a person who is violent, but could just think on different plains. To think that our plain of existence is the only true plain is not only arrogant but taken from perspective.

I find it amazing how we drifted from the Martial Arts to something so complex as the human mind. With our limited knowledge of the human brain, this topic will never end. We would be like Aristotle and the Greeks pondering for eternity. Perhaps, we can try to figure out what we have all thought in common and then realise what we can gather from that which can support or refute any other theory's. Although I like debates, I feel that this one serves no purpose other than to fuel a conflict.

It is with that, that I wish to pose this question. Is there a similarity among violent people that is based on their social output, environment, or lack of role model? I await your reply's ladies and gentlemen

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Jennifer
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is a conflict, it's with you. I was rather enjoying the different opinions. Simply b/c I have a different opinion regarding mental stability doesn't mean that I was looking to create an argument. It certainly doesn't make me arrogant, and I dislike the implication. Nowhere in posts did I say that there is only one plain of thought, in fact, my posts have been to the contrary.
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Angus
Black Belt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1064
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, i ment to state that i am opposed to the sociological view... As a teenager growing up i never really had my dad as a role model. He was and still is always at work and when he does come home we never get along. There was a phase where i hated my father and didn't want to be anything like him. but then my Nan told me one day that my Pop was exactly the same as my father and they did not have a close relationship.
I have ended this trend in my family, i am in touch with my emotional state, i love people, i play as much as i work and i make everyone my equal if not my better.

SEE, WHAT DID I TELL YOU! Conflict brings people together, as in this discussion, it leads to a lot of stuff.

Angus

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This Message was edited by: Angus on Jun 25, 2001 9:20pm
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Jennifer
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You certainly did prove your point, Angus!

I'm sorry to hear about your relationship w/your dad. I've always been close to both of my parents, and I find stories of family strife very upsetting. But I'm really happy to hear that you've found ways of filling the void. If you decide to have children of your own, I hope that your relationship w/them will be a happier one.
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Kickbutt
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 910
Location: North Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I echo the sentiment Jen...you can be whatever you choose - remember, everything is a choice, including how you choose to react - which brings me to my next point: This was to be a clean debate...there were no underhand implications that I read on Jen's behalf - I believe you chose to see it that way...Of all the posts I've seen Jen make, she has been very informative and forward with her thoughts and beliefs. Someone expressing their beliefs does not constitute an arguement, but a simple debate - it's a good learning tool and can also be very enlightening. A good debate can be alot of fun too!! So don't worry too much about it, you know what you stand for - but don't discount them either as you could be missing out...This was not in any way meant to be disrespectful - I simply wanted to help smooth things over. Ouss.


Lori
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Karateka
Red Belt
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Joined: 22 Jun 2001
Posts: 786
Location: North Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no intention of implication to anyone. I speak in all my responses in an unbiast 3rd party prospective. I apologize if you took offense to that.
:bows respectivley:

So with that, no one seems to want to answer my question. I feel that we are all intelligent people so we may tackle bigger issues. I personally feel that there are many aspects to violence. I feel that if a person is drawn to violence it may be from psychological trauma. I believe that everyones own ideas and actions come from the brain and the spirit. If you agree or disagree, I would love to hear why.

I await any reply,

Karateka

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Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei)
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Angus
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Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 1064
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2001 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your kind sentiment Jen, it is appreciated. I surely do hope that if i ever have children that i can give them a good upbringing.

Angus

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Freidrich Nietsche.

This Message was edited by: Angus on Jun 26, 2001 1:00am

This Message was edited by: Angus on Jun 27, 2001 1:30am
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Kickbutt
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2001
Posts: 910
Location: North Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Karateka, I firmly believe that if you are prone to violence, that it is a direct result of what you have learned via your upbringing or certain events in your life. We are a product of our upbringing and our environment and tend to gravitate to what we know or what's familiar, regardless of right or wrong. There are also mental/neurological disorders that can lead to violence, but that's another issue...

Lori

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If you think something small cannot make a difference - try going to sleep with a mosquito in the room.

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