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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14267
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
How do we explain those that can do the fancy things but perform basic stuff poorly?

Great question, TJ-Jitsu!!

I'm quite sure that the answer to this fantastic question will vary from individual to individual, so here's mine...

Quality; the lack thereof!!

Priorities have run askew in the wrong direction. However, that direction is the choice of that individual, for intent. One can't have quality in those things that are beyond ones basics if those basics are ignored for those things that have a desired flash.

What is basics?? Another question where the answer will vary from individual to individual.

Basics, imho, are those things that solidify ones foundation. Without a solid basics foundation, there can be no intermediate substances, and without the intermediate substances, there can be no advanced substances. Furthermore, without the solidified basics, those things that are considered fancy, are no more than an illusion.

When one concentrates on reaching the stratosphere into the fancy/flash more than the necessary and required basics of ones core MA, then, instead of building their core basics on rock-solid ground, one has purposefully built their core basics on sand instead; ineffectiveness becomes the proponent of that individuals flash/fancy arsenal...no future can survive.

The great Nolan Ryan, former Major League Baseball (MLB) pitcher of the Texas Rangers, survived a 27 year career, and became considered one of the most dangerous pitchers, because he never denied just how important basic are. Throwing in the ranges of 100 mph, garnered 7 no-hitters...three more than any other pitcher. With Nolan remaining true to the basics, provided him a long and successful MLB career. He didn't need fancy/flash at all because of his mastery of his necessary and required basics. At 100 mph pitches, had he not believed in the basics, he would've blown out his pitching arm very much earlier than this legendary 27 years in the MLB.

Want to be fancy/flash!?! That's good; it might have its place!! But logic dictates that one should first practice ones basics properly every day, or at least quite often, on a daily basis in order to solidify the foundation before one starts to wonder in the genre of fancy/flash.

Imho!!




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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
How do we explain those that can do the fancy things but perform basic stuff poorly?


I'm glad you asked. Some folks will develop the ability to do something despite of their bad habits. If you're to look at musicians, for example, you'll find that some guitarists hold the guitar in a very non-traditional way which would hamper most folks from performing well, yet that particular individual does just fine (or, even excellent!)

These folks aren't the rule, they're the exception, and in my opinion, it's foolish to aspire to do what they do.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


Im going to be a little provocative here (imagine that....)

I would add the following to the end of those sentences:

"To my knowledge"
and
"So far"

And the conversation can take a rather dynamic course eh?
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


Im going to be a little provocative here (imagine that....)

I would add the following to the end of those sentences:

"To my knowledge"
and
"So far"

And the conversation can take a rather dynamic course eh?


Then that's not a conversation. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2332
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The basics are pretty much the simplest and most fundamental techniques in the art. Just about everything afterwards is more or less a variation of the basics. Or depending on the art, the basics are the first things you learn and have a significant impact on the practicioner’s success/effectiveness down the road. Keeping it simple...

Boxing’s basics are the stance and moving forward, backward, and side to side in it; and 4 punches - jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. If you can’t do those right, you’re not going to do anything right. Everything is a variation of those.

Karate’s basics -
4 blocks - high, inside-out, outside-in, and low.
Punches - lunge punch and reverse punch
Open hand - look similar to the blocks in our system
Kicks - Front, roundhouse, side, hook (although hook kick is a variation of side kick in a way), and crescent kicks
Stance - forward leaning, backward leaning, horse stance, and Sanchin stance

Everything is pretty much a variation of those. The better those are, the better everything else will be. If you can’t do a hook kick, a back spin kick (spinning hook kick) isn’t going to be very good. If you can’t crescent kick, a tornado kick (basically an outside in crescent kick - spinning inside out crescent kick) isn’t going to go very well.

Wrestling’s basics get a bit tricky in that more advanced stuff isn’t just a variation. Wrestling’s basics are pretty much the simplest to learn and usually most reliable techniques - single and double leg takedown, sprawling, half-nelson, arm bar, cradle, switch, stand-up, back-heel trip, duck-under, and head and arm throw. Can someone learn other throws, pinning combinations, or the legs series without first learning what I called the basics? Absolutely. But they’re generally not going to be able to get into position to do them very well or they’re going to get countered by very simple stuff and have no clue what happened.

I haven’t done BJJ a day in my life, so I have no clue what the basics are. I’d imagine they’re the simplest, easiest to learn and most reliable things to do from a few different positions - mount, guard, and standing.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement


Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.


Im going to be a little provocative here (imagine that....)

I would add the following to the end of those sentences:

"To my knowledge"
and
"So far"

And the conversation can take a rather dynamic course eh?


Then that's not a conversation. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.


I think you’re misinterpreting my intentions or my posts- I’m merely trying to stimulate a conversation not put words in your mouth. When I suggest those two phrases I’m suggesting that absolute knowledge is something that is rare, perhaps not attained yet- so maybe we start to brainstorm about what we think those basics could be, what makes them “the basics” and what legitimizes that claim.

So let me rephrase. I always add those two phrases when I hear someone show, teach, or explain something. It still becomes a conversation, just not necessarily an opinion and it puts things into perspective. - what if I were to ask you to add those two phrases at the end of your statements? Would you have the same opinions then?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14267
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??



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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)
2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict
3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??




Yes
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