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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 398
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:08 pm Post subject: The esoteric aspect of martial arts... |
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To be specific, I am talking about Qi Gong and Kujikiri. Now I just want to note that both disciplines are not really for combat but rather its claims revolved around cultivation of ones spirit and vitality. Both disciplines are rooted in Yoga.
Qi Gong is from china and most folks have heard the name. Many serious kung fu practitioners and folks looking for alternative health tend to partake in these activities. The theme is cultivation of ones being.
Kujikiri is Japanese and while its supposed to be part of ninjutsu, it is a stand alone practice. It revolves around Yoga Mudra which are the handle signals. Much like Qi Gong, this art revolves around being more than what you are in essence of your humanity.
Now this is where my question comes and forgive me if this is going to sound mystical. But what I would like to know is, do you believe in their potential of the practice bestowing great capabilities?
Not necessarily super powers, but more like the ability to have incredible health, renewed youth, increase of vitality and becoming a better learner, sharper mind and body as well as getting rid of traumatic memories stemming from violence or a deep emotional hurt. My end goal is to find out how much you believe in the unknown aspects of martial arts. I mean, ancient warriors and martial artist had tough lives full of darkness. I like to think that they had to create a yin practice to control their yang so that they could evolve in to well minded individuals.[/i]
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It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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Wamp
Yellow Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 40
Location: Japan
Styles: Ashihara Karate, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Good question Himokiri Karate,
I think the supper strength of these types of arts comes from clearing out the mind and being able to have mental clarity and focus. Once you get the distractions of life out of your head you can train harder and give more mental focus on learning the art, getting stronger, and staying healthier. |
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Capella
Yellow Belt
Joined: 06 Nov 2019
Posts: 36
Location: Germany
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| I think, what it comes down to is to learn to calm yourself and control your breathing and heartbeat under physical stress/tension. It really isn't all that esoteric. And yes, I think it does have a great potoential both for your health, but also for your general resiliance in life. |
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Fat Cobra
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 344
Location: Watertown, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I have practiced both and, like the previous posts, I don't believe it gets you mystical powers. However, it does help you focus and potentially control body functions that you may not normally be able to control.
I believe both are good to do.
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Yondan in Ryukyu Kempo
Head of the Shubu Kan Dojo in Carthage, NY
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scohen0300
Member of the Month
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I’ve been a yoga teacher for a number of years. Although I haven’t practiced either of those arts, I can say something about yoga since that’s where they come from.
Yoga, of course, doesn’t give anyone mystical powers. However, I see yoga as a set of tools to help you in a number of ways.
The poses:
- they never change, they’re always the same. And yet, they’ll feel different every single day. Sometimes harder, sometimes easier. You’ll feel extra stiff in some places, and then a different day you’ll feel extra loose. The poses are tools for observation. What have you been doing that made you feel a certain way in this pose? How you eat, how you sleep, your stress levels, your activities, they all will have an affect on this.
BREATHING.
- stress can cause an elevated heart rate and oftentimes trigger an anxiety attack. If you can gain control of your breathing, you can bring your heart rate back down and get control of that stress. Easier said than done, but breathing is a tool that yoga (and I’m assuming these arts) often emphasize.
The 8 Limbs of Yoga.
- these are often referred to as the 8 step process to enlightenment. It includes personal and spiritual observances of yourself and others, breathing, the yoga poses, concentration, “withdrawing” your senses, meditation, and finding and maintaining a mental state of bliss. This is the “curriculum” of yoga.
There are many other practices that can count as yoga, but I think what I’ve covered is the core. These practices are meant to help you live a longer, happier, healthier life with as little stress and struggle as possible. They help you to focus on what’s going to serve you, rather than staying stuck on what doesn’t.
MY ANSWER.
Yes! I believe that incorporating practices such as yoga, martial arts (not just the two you mentioned), and anything similar can bestow great capabilities upon the practitioners. Certainly, none of the mystical kind. But if you have a big heart, a healthy body and a clear mind, there’s no telling what you’ll be capable of.
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Instagram: @srkdi_pgh
Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30001
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: The esoteric aspect of martial arts... |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
Now this is where my question comes and forgive me if this is going to sound mystical. But what I would like to know is, do you believe in their potential of the practice bestowing great capabilities?
Not necessarily super powers, but more like the ability to have incredible health, renewed youth, increase of vitality and becoming a better learner, sharper mind and body as well as getting rid of traumatic memories stemming from violence or a deep emotional hurt. My end goal is to find out how much you believe in the unknown aspects of martial arts. I mean, ancient warriors and martial artist had tough lives full of darkness. I like to think that they had to create a yin practice to control their yang so that they could evolve in to well minded individuals.[/i] |
I don't believe any "great" capabilities are bestowed on individuals who practice these things. I'm not convinced that someone who practices these specialties necessarily increases their life span or overall quality of life any more than doing any other physical activity to get into and stay in good shape. I'm not saying that they aren't beneficial to do, if activities like these are in one's wheelhouse. These activities, like so many, appeal to some more than others, and like many activities, one is likely to get out of it what one puts into it.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 398
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Wamp wrote: |
Good question Himokiri Karate,
I think the supper strength of these types of arts comes from clearing out the mind and being able to have mental clarity and focus. Once you get the distractions of life out of your head you can train harder and give more mental focus on learning the art, getting stronger, and staying healthier. |
Sorry if its a late response.
I have been meditating more and more with passing of years. First it was me being discontent with life, then Covid 19 and now running in to bad people as of recent which makes me have very dark and raging thoughts.
If I meditate, the rage does not go away but it allows me agency to control and apply it in to my conversation ( becoming boisterous and strong voice) and helps me want to push myself in training.
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It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Wow...a book could literally be written on either qigong or kuji-kiri (and they have!). When looking at them both at the same time, it is a massively deep subject.
My apologies in advance for what I am sure is going to be a book of a response...
If I may, before digging into what the OP says and asks, I’d like to take the time to backtrack a bit and do a slight bit to establish my bona fides as to kuji-kiri. This could come off the wrong way (at least to some) and I hope that no one takes this effort as a means of trying to “toot my own horn”. It is just that there is an absolute ton of bovine excrement out there concerning kuji-kiri (kuji-in) and, to be honest, qigong. I just want to show that I do have a bit of a background in what I am saying here. It in no way should be taken that I am trying to say that I am 100% right.
Back in, I believe, 1978 or 1979 (shortly after I began my official martial arts training) Black Belt magazine did an article on Stephen K. Hayes and how he is living in Japan and training with Hatsumi Soke in ninjutsu. I was absolutely fascinated. While they did not give a specific address to the location of the dojo, they did state it was in Noda, Chiba Prefecture. So, I wrote Stephen a letter (obviously years before email would even start to begin to be a thing) and addressed it to him in care of Hatsumi Masaki using the city, prefecture and country. Off I went to the post office and got an international envelope and with the appropriate postage. It has been so long ago that I really don’t even remember specifically what I wrote. Something along the lines of how cool I thought ninjutsu was and what he was doing as well as how I would like to meet him one day and train with him. Lo and behold, a few months later, I got a response from him! A personal response at that. I really don’t remember what all he said (it was, actually, a rather lengthy response). But, one thing that he did say was that if we were ever able to make it happen, he would be happen to “train me”. How cool is that?
Flash forward to the winter of 1982 (I think). It just so happened that at the time, Stephen happened to have a dojo in Kettering, OH. It was in a pretty run down shopping center in the basement level. I don’t remember specifically if they were all partners in the dojo, but it was Stephen along with Bud Malmstrom and Larry Beaver (what ever happened to Larry?). Anyway, I showed up one night and asked Stephen if he remembered getting a letter from a kid in Texas while he was in Japan. He said he did. I told him that I was that kid and, as the letter had stated, I was here to train. LOL! Really funny looking back on it!
Later, I ended up in an Atlanta suburb and hooked up with Bud Malmstrom for a bit as his dojo was there and spent some time there. Not even sure if Bud would really remember me...I am not a remarkable person in most circumstances.
Fast forward to the early to mid 1990’s and I was in the Houston area. In, I believe, the 3rd of the late Dr. Glenn Morris’ books, it mentioned him living in Houston. I managed to track him down, called him, we met and really hit it off. We became fast friends and training partners. At the time, I believe, Glenn was a 7th dan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. He was also teaching some of his own mix of arts called Hoshinroshi-ryu Jutaijutsu. I ended up getting a sandan from Glenn in Hoshin. Glenn and I hit it off so well, he passed along a student of his from the UK that ended up living with me as an type of uchi-deshi. Glenn also sent me off to meet and do some work with Dr. Ed Sones in Wimberly, TX. Another 7th dan (I think) in the Booj at the time. Glenn was a really interesting character. Much of what he said, did and wrote was taken too literally...especially by some hardcore Booj folks. Glenn was also very into the esoteric side of things and that is alot of the training and discussion we did.
Anyway, why all of the above? Like I said earlier...just an attempt to establish some bona fides with regards to ninjutsu since they are the ones that seem to be the most well known when it comes to kuji-kiri/kuji-in.
| Quote: |
| To be specific, I am talking about Qi Gong and Kujikiri. Now I just want to note that both disciplines are not really for combat but rather its claims revolved around cultivation of ones spirit and vitality. |
As to the above comment...when it comes to qigong, I think that it needs to be established what qigong actually is. Some may disagree with the following and I would be happy to have that discussion as well. Put as simply as I can, you have neigong (inner work) and qigong. They are not the same. Qigong starts outside the body and works inwards. Neigong starts inside the body and works outwards. By way of example, Yiquan (I-Chuan) is neigong. 5 Element Qigong (wuxing) is...well...as the name implies...is qigong. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Just remember outside in or inside out. More discussions can be had on this.
To say that qigong is not for combat and is geared towards the cultivation of spirit and or vitality is not correct. Think of neigong as a pie. Qigong are slices of that pie. So, you can have qigong that are strictly health related. You can have qigong for enlightenment or spiritual development. You can also have qigong for longevity. While that is certainly health related, I am defining health related as a specific qigong set dealing with a specific issue and qigong for longevity as general qigong to help live a longer and healthier life that is not trying to deal with a specific ailment. And, yes, you can have qigong for martial benefit as well.
I am going to leave kuji-kiri/kuji-in alone for the moment and get into that below. Suffice it to say that the comments above by the OP in regards to kuji are, essentially, incorrect as well.
| Quote: |
| Both disciplines are rooted in Yoga. Qi Gong is from china and most folks have heard the name. Many serious kung fu practitioners and folks looking for alternative health tend to partake in these activities. The theme is cultivation of ones being. |
So, both disciplines are not necessarily rooted in yoga. When it comes to qigong, yes...that term is Chinese. And, yes, there are some similar aspects from yoga to qigong. But that hand seals of kuji-kiri/kuji-in are also found in Ayurveda, the sister science of yoga. And they are also found in the traditional Indian martial art of Kalaripayattu (or Kalari). The key is that it is ALL based on the intrinsic internal energy prana (qi), pranayama (breath or energy work), nadis (meridians and channels or jing luo) and marmas (xue). Side note: Even in Kalari they had a sub-art or method of striking the marmas the have an effect on the prana, killing the person being struck! Hello Dim Mak/dian xue! LOL! The key here is that all of this ties to Hinduism. So, not necessarily yoga itself per se. Was yoga (hatha and raja) a part of this? Yes, absolutely! But did qigong derive from yoga? No. Yoga is a root. When Bodhidharma gave us 18 Monk Hands (Shiba Luohan Shou), the Sinew Change Classic (Yijin Jing) and the Marrow Washing Classic (Xi Sui Jing), ALL of the above reference items were roots of this training. Remember, Bodhidharma (due to his caste) would have knowledge and training in ALL of the above and all of these would be incorporated in what was taught to the monks. The key takeaway to all of this is that the base is Hinduism and NOT yoga alone.
| Quote: |
| Kujikiri is Japanese and while its supposed to be part of ninjutsu, it is a stand alone practice. It revolves around Yoga Mudra which are the handle signals. Much like Qi Gong, this art revolves around being more than what you are in essence of your humanity. |
FINALLY! The really good stuff! Kuji-kiri/kuji-in!
So, yes...the term kuji-kiri (and kuji-in) is Japanese. And yes, it is a part of ninjutsu. No, it is NOT a stand alone practice. It is a part of or a sub-art of a number of different practices.
Remember at the very beginning of this when you said that kuji is not for martial arts? Well, isn’t ninjutsu a martial art? Aside from that, you can also find kuji in other Japanese koryu martial arts.An example of this is Otake Risuke Sensei (Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū bujutsu) in his book “The Deity and the Sword” references kuji. And, to different degrees, you will find kuji referenced in the densho (scrolls...documents of transmission) in both Toda-ha Buko-ryu and Araki-ryu. So, kuji-kiri/kuji-in is absolutely a part of martial arts.
As to more on the being a stand alone practice, kuji is actually a part of a specific ritual derived from Shingon mikkyo...which is an esoteric sect of Buddhism (Mìzong in Chinese and Vajrayana in Tibet...and, by the way, there is also a line of thought that kuji came from Tibet and not India...but that is a topic for a different time). So, if you were initiated into and adept of Shugendo and/or Shingon Mikkyo, you would have not only been trained in the ritual of kuji-kiri, but also the ritual of Hannya Shin Gyo (Heart of Transcendental Wisdom) and many others. Kuji-kiri could be taught nowadays as a stand alone art (and probably is by someone). But, speaking from a historical and traditional sense, it is not. Using the reference that I used above, kuji-kiri is a slice of the larger pie.
Circling back to the comment by the OP that this comes from yoga, no...Are there mudra (the hand seals) in yoga the look very similar to the mudra of kuji-kiri? Absolutely yes. A very good example of this is the Vajra mudra from yoga and the Zai mudra in kuji-kiri. But remember that there are a number of different schools of yoga. You can literally find hundreds of different mudras in yoga. The Nātyaśāstra scripture from the Indian traditions lists 24 asaṁyuta ("separated" and/or "one-hand") and 13 saṁyuta ("joined" and/or "two-hand") mudras.
| Quote: |
| Now this is where my question comes and forgive me if this is going to sound mystical. But what I would like to know is, do you believe in their potential of the practice bestowing great capabilities? |
I have to break your question(s) into different parts to answer them the best way that I, personally, can.
As to qigong (moreso neigong) and the above question, yes. Use taijiquan (pick your favorite flavor) and use press (ji) as an example. If I can outwardly express peng jin and with a small movement bounce your 5 or 10 feet backwards, is that a great capability?
As to kuji-kiri/kuji-in, also yes...but not the way that you think. Especially in light of the rest of your comment below. So keep reading...I really am almost done here!
| Quote: |
| Not necessarily super powers, but more like the ability to have incredible health, renewed youth, increase of vitality and becoming a better learner, sharper mind and body as well as getting rid of traumatic memories stemming from violence or a deep emotional hurt. |
So kuji-kiri/kuji-in first...
Kuji is actually known for “super powers”. Especially with the bovine excrement your find in modern popular media nowadays. For example, “hearing the thoughts of another” is one of the capabilities that kuji is supposed to bestow upon you. The problem here is that we are looking at this from a Western perspective and meaning. When you say hearing or listening in English, the usually means something that is actually auditory. Sound waves being emitted by someone or something that causes the mechanisms of our ear to vibrate and transmit to our brains as “sound”. Now, look at things from an Asian (specifically Chinese and Japanese in this particular instance). If I am showing your Taijiquan push hands (tuishou) and I tell you that you need to develop listening energy (ting jin), does that mean that I am telling you to listen or hear (using the auditory system) for some sort of energy emitting from your opponent? No. The same thing applies to kuji. You are not getting some telepathic connection to your opponent...although I suppose there is at least one person out there trying to actually teach that!
So, in answering this last part of your question, just what the heck is kuji-kiri?
In a brief nutshell, kuji is an esoteric teaching that purports to show how one can almost instantaneously switch to a state of muga (no self) for a number of specific reasons through the use of the following mechanisms:
A hand position (mudra)
A spoken expression (mantra)
A mental visualization or actual object (mandala)
SIDE NOTE: I am already way out in the tall grass, so I am not going to go even further at this point in this post, but there are those that also teach that a focus point on the body and/or a philosophical concept or problem...think like a Zen koan as a basic example of this. A topic for another day.
There has been little and I do mean VERY little Western scientific study into this. But there was one that I know of. There is alot that they were able to measure, but the TLDR version of it is that meditation is a state that takes a bit to achieve (meaning the measurable effects). The the people that did kuji, the effects were virtually instantaneous.
FINALLY, back to qigong and the last part of your question. For me, the answer is yes. There are qigong sets that can help you with all of the ailments your reference. If someone does not believe in the existence of some sort of intrinsic internal energy that we have a means of controlling and enhancing, then their answer would probably be no.
And...really lastly....not only is there kuji, there is also juji! LOL! Don't worry, I will save that for another post.
Man...that made my own head hurt! LOL! I hope the OP is still around to read this or someone got at least a little something from this book that I have written! I’ll stop my old man ramblings now.
I am happy to discuss any of the above with anyone that has an interest.
For those that made it to the end, I thank you and appreciate you. |
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 398
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
Wow...a book could literally be written on either qigong or kuji-kiri (and they have!). When looking at them both at the same time, it is a massively deep subject.
My apologies in advance for what I am sure is going to be a book of a response...
If I may, before digging into what the OP says and asks, I’d like to take the time to backtrack a bit and do a slight bit to establish my bona fides as to kuji-kiri. This could come off the wrong way (at least to some) and I hope that no one takes this effort as a means of trying to “toot my own horn”. It is just that there is an absolute ton of bovine excrement out there concerning kuji-kiri (kuji-in) and, to be honest, qigong. I just want to show that I do have a bit of a background in what I am saying here. It in no way should be taken that I am trying to say that I am 100% right.
Back in, I believe, 1978 or 1979 (shortly after I began my official martial arts training) Black Belt magazine did an article on Stephen K. Hayes and how he is living in Japan and training with Hatsumi Soke in ninjutsu. I was absolutely fascinated. While they did not give a specific address to the location of the dojo, they did state it was in Noda, Chiba Prefecture. So, I wrote Stephen a letter (obviously years before email would even start to begin to be a thing) and addressed it to him in care of Hatsumi Masaki using the city, prefecture and country. Off I went to the post office and got an international envelope and with the appropriate postage. It has been so long ago that I really don’t even remember specifically what I wrote. Something along the lines of how cool I thought ninjutsu was and what he was doing as well as how I would like to meet him one day and train with him. Lo and behold, a few months later, I got a response from him! A personal response at that. I really don’t remember what all he said (it was, actually, a rather lengthy response). But, one thing that he did say was that if we were ever able to make it happen, he would be happen to “train me”. How cool is that?
Flash forward to the winter of 1982 (I think). It just so happened that at the time, Stephen happened to have a dojo in Kettering, OH. It was in a pretty run down shopping center in the basement level. I don’t remember specifically if they were all partners in the dojo, but it was Stephen along with Bud Malmstrom and Larry Beaver (what ever happened to Larry?). Anyway, I showed up one night and asked Stephen if he remembered getting a letter from a kid in Texas while he was in Japan. He said he did. I told him that I was that kid and, as the letter had stated, I was here to train. LOL! Really funny looking back on it!
Later, I ended up in an Atlanta suburb and hooked up with Bud Malmstrom for a bit as his dojo was there and spent some time there. Not even sure if Bud would really remember me...I am not a remarkable person in most circumstances.
Fast forward to the early to mid 1990’s and I was in the Houston area. In, I believe, the 3rd of the late Dr. Glenn Morris’ books, it mentioned him living in Houston. I managed to track him down, called him, we met and really hit it off. We became fast friends and training partners. At the time, I believe, Glenn was a 7th dan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. He was also teaching some of his own mix of arts called Hoshinroshi-ryu Jutaijutsu. I ended up getting a sandan from Glenn in Hoshin. Glenn and I hit it off so well, he passed along a student of his from the UK that ended up living with me as an type of uchi-deshi. Glenn also sent me off to meet and do some work with Dr. Ed Sones in Wimberly, TX. Another 7th dan (I think) in the Booj at the time. Glenn was a really interesting character. Much of what he said, did and wrote was taken too literally...especially by some hardcore Booj folks. Glenn was also very into the esoteric side of things and that is alot of the training and discussion we did.
Anyway, why all of the above? Like I said earlier...just an attempt to establish some bona fides with regards to ninjutsu since they are the ones that seem to be the most well known when it comes to kuji-kiri/kuji-in.
| Quote: |
| To be specific, I am talking about Qi Gong and Kujikiri. Now I just want to note that both disciplines are not really for combat but rather its claims revolved around cultivation of ones spirit and vitality. |
As to the above comment...when it comes to qigong, I think that it needs to be established what qigong actually is. Some may disagree with the following and I would be happy to have that discussion as well. Put as simply as I can, you have neigong (inner work) and qigong. They are not the same. Qigong starts outside the body and works inwards. Neigong starts inside the body and works outwards. By way of example, Yiquan (I-Chuan) is neigong. 5 Element Qigong (wuxing) is...well...as the name implies...is qigong. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Just remember outside in or inside out. More discussions can be had on this.
To say that qigong is not for combat and is geared towards the cultivation of spirit and or vitality is not correct. Think of neigong as a pie. Qigong are slices of that pie. So, you can have qigong that are strictly health related. You can have qigong for enlightenment or spiritual development. You can also have qigong for longevity. While that is certainly health related, I am defining health related as a specific qigong set dealing with a specific issue and qigong for longevity as general qigong to help live a longer and healthier life that is not trying to deal with a specific ailment. And, yes, you can have qigong for martial benefit as well.
I am going to leave kuji-kiri/kuji-in alone for the moment and get into that below. Suffice it to say that the comments above by the OP in regards to kuji are, essentially, incorrect as well.
| Quote: |
| Both disciplines are rooted in Yoga. Qi Gong is from china and most folks have heard the name. Many serious kung fu practitioners and folks looking for alternative health tend to partake in these activities. The theme is cultivation of ones being. |
So, both disciplines are not necessarily rooted in yoga. When it comes to qigong, yes...that term is Chinese. And, yes, there are some similar aspects from yoga to qigong. But that hand seals of kuji-kiri/kuji-in are also found in Ayurveda, the sister science of yoga. And they are also found in the traditional Indian martial art of Kalaripayattu (or Kalari). The key is that it is ALL based on the intrinsic internal energy prana (qi), pranayama (breath or energy work), nadis (meridians and channels or jing luo) and marmas (xue). Side note: Even in Kalari they had a sub-art or method of striking the marmas the have an effect on the prana, killing the person being struck! Hello Dim Mak/dian xue! LOL! The key here is that all of this ties to Hinduism. So, not necessarily yoga itself per se. Was yoga (hatha and raja) a part of this? Yes, absolutely! But did qigong derive from yoga? No. Yoga is a root. When Bodhidharma gave us 18 Monk Hands (Shiba Luohan Shou), the Sinew Change Classic (Yijin Jing) and the Marrow Washing Classic (Xi Sui Jing), ALL of the above reference items were roots of this training. Remember, Bodhidharma (due to his caste) would have knowledge and training in ALL of the above and all of these would be incorporated in what was taught to the monks. The key takeaway to all of this is that the base is Hinduism and NOT yoga alone.
| Quote: |
| Kujikiri is Japanese and while its supposed to be part of ninjutsu, it is a stand alone practice. It revolves around Yoga Mudra which are the handle signals. Much like Qi Gong, this art revolves around being more than what you are in essence of your humanity. |
FINALLY! The really good stuff! Kuji-kiri/kuji-in!
So, yes...the term kuji-kiri (and kuji-in) is Japanese. And yes, it is a part of ninjutsu. No, it is NOT a stand alone practice. It is a part of or a sub-art of a number of different practices.
Remember at the very beginning of this when you said that kuji is not for martial arts? Well, isn’t ninjutsu a martial art? Aside from that, you can also find kuji in other Japanese koryu martial arts.An example of this is Otake Risuke Sensei (Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū bujutsu) in his book “The Deity and the Sword” references kuji. And, to different degrees, you will find kuji referenced in the densho (scrolls...documents of transmission) in both Toda-ha Buko-ryu and Araki-ryu. So, kuji-kiri/kuji-in is absolutely a part of martial arts.
As to more on the being a stand alone practice, kuji is actually a part of a specific ritual derived from Shingon mikkyo...which is an esoteric sect of Buddhism (Mìzong in Chinese and Vajrayana in Tibet...and, by the way, there is also a line of thought that kuji came from Tibet and not India...but that is a topic for a different time). So, if you were initiated into and adept of Shugendo and/or Shingon Mikkyo, you would have not only been trained in the ritual of kuji-kiri, but also the ritual of Hannya Shin Gyo (Heart of Transcendental Wisdom) and many others. Kuji-kiri could be taught nowadays as a stand alone art (and probably is by someone). But, speaking from a historical and traditional sense, it is not. Using the reference that I used above, kuji-kiri is a slice of the larger pie.
Circling back to the comment by the OP that this comes from yoga, no...Are there mudra (the hand seals) in yoga the look very similar to the mudra of kuji-kiri? Absolutely yes. A very good example of this is the Vajra mudra from yoga and the Zai mudra in kuji-kiri. But remember that there are a number of different schools of yoga. You can literally find hundreds of different mudras in yoga. The Nātyaśāstra scripture from the Indian traditions lists 24 asaṁyuta ("separated" and/or "one-hand") and 13 saṁyuta ("joined" and/or "two-hand") mudras.
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| Now this is where my question comes and forgive me if this is going to sound mystical. But what I would like to know is, do you believe in their potential of the practice bestowing great capabilities? |
I have to break your question(s) into different parts to answer them the best way that I, personally, can.
As to qigong (moreso neigong) and the above question, yes. Use taijiquan (pick your favorite flavor) and use press (ji) as an example. If I can outwardly express peng jin and with a small movement bounce your 5 or 10 feet backwards, is that a great capability?
As to kuji-kiri/kuji-in, also yes...but not the way that you think. Especially in light of the rest of your comment below. So keep reading...I really am almost done here!
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| Not necessarily super powers, but more like the ability to have incredible health, renewed youth, increase of vitality and becoming a better learner, sharper mind and body as well as getting rid of traumatic memories stemming from violence or a deep emotional hurt. |
So kuji-kiri/kuji-in first...
Kuji is actually known for “super powers”. Especially with the bovine excrement your find in modern popular media nowadays. For example, “hearing the thoughts of another” is one of the capabilities that kuji is supposed to bestow upon you. The problem here is that we are looking at this from a Western perspective and meaning. When you say hearing or listening in English, the usually means something that is actually auditory. Sound waves being emitted by someone or something that causes the mechanisms of our ear to vibrate and transmit to our brains as “sound”. Now, look at things from an Asian (specifically Chinese and Japanese in this particular instance). If I am showing your Taijiquan push hands (tuishou) and I tell you that you need to develop listening energy (ting jin), does that mean that I am telling you to listen or hear (using the auditory system) for some sort of energy emitting from your opponent? No. The same thing applies to kuji. You are not getting some telepathic connection to your opponent...although I suppose there is at least one person out there trying to actually teach that!
So, in answering this last part of your question, just what the heck is kuji-kiri?
In a brief nutshell, kuji is an esoteric teaching that purports to show how one can almost instantaneously switch to a state of muga (no self) for a number of specific reasons through the use of the following mechanisms:
A hand position (mudra)
A spoken expression (mantra)
A mental visualization or actual object (mandala)
SIDE NOTE: I am already way out in the tall grass, so I am not going to go even further at this point in this post, but there are those that also teach that a focus point on the body and/or a philosophical concept or problem...think like a Zen koan as a basic example of this. A topic for another day.
There has been little and I do mean VERY little Western scientific study into this. But there was one that I know of. There is alot that they were able to measure, but the TLDR version of it is that meditation is a state that takes a bit to achieve (meaning the measurable effects). The the people that did kuji, the effects were virtually instantaneous.
FINALLY, back to qigong and the last part of your question. For me, the answer is yes. There are qigong sets that can help you with all of the ailments your reference. If someone does not believe in the existence of some sort of intrinsic internal energy that we have a means of controlling and enhancing, then their answer would probably be no.
And...really lastly....not only is there kuji, there is also juji! LOL! Don't worry, I will save that for another post.
Man...that made my own head hurt! LOL! I hope the OP is still around to read this or someone got at least a little something from this book that I have written! I’ll stop my old man ramblings now.
I am happy to discuss any of the above with anyone that has an interest.
For those that made it to the end, I thank you and appreciate you. |
I am just responding this because of recent reminder in different thread. I was blown away when I was in middle of reading it but then work emergency and other issues got in a way and I forgot to finish since this posts requires true attention to understand and it is worth understanding.
I am blown away and I agree with you about Hinduism being the origin point or inspiration for Qi Gong and Kujikiri. I suppose my yoga teachers get carried away with their love of Yoga and so they want to say that Yoga inspired everything that is also awesome. But I find that your answer is more broad and not biased which gives it the air of accuracy.
I wish I would have responded sooner. This post was made when I made a dramatic rekindling in to my yoga journey and the words of my old yoga teachers who were fanatic about these things made me paint a picture.
That being said, since wee are eon this topic, did Koreans have anything esoteric as well?
I have heard of druids and medieval magic talk about mantras and visualization in Steve Richards book.
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It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
I am just responding this because of recent reminder in different thread. I was blown away when I was in middle of reading it but then work emergency and other issues got in a way and I forgot to finish since this posts requires true attention to understand and it is worth understanding.
I am blown away and I agree with you about Hinduism being the origin point or inspiration for Qi Gong and Kujikiri. I suppose my yoga teachers get carried away with their love of Yoga and so they want to say that Yoga inspired everything that is also awesome. But I find that your answer is more broad and not biased which gives it the air of accuracy.
I wish I would have responded sooner. This post was made when I made a dramatic rekindling in to my yoga journey and the words of my old yoga teachers who were fanatic about these things made me paint a picture.
That being said, since wee are eon this topic, did Koreans have anything esoteric as well?
I have heard of druids and medieval magic talk about mantras and visualization in Steve Richards book. |
I am glad you found something useful out my ramblings! LOL!
When you get into the Korean based arts, I start to get a little out of my wheelhouse (so to speak)...but I can contribute a bit...
Way back in the day (in the early 80's), I was out in CA (Hollywood). It wasn't too hard to get to Downey, so I was able to spend some time at Joo Bang Lee (and his brother Joo Sang Lee) at their Hwrangdo school. The art they teach has a number of "esoteric" sub-arts or specialties within it. How legit is the art? I can't really speak to that as I don't have the skill or knowledge to do so. Nice bunch of folks when I was there and certainly an interesting art. The whole hook up they did with Mike Echanis seemed really to try and take advantage of the "ninja craze" that was going on at the time. However, that is my personal opinion. Note that I never met Echanis, he had already died in South America by the time I got out there. I did have his complete book series that he did with Joo Bang Lee.
Kuk Sool Won has some healing, breathing and meditation practices. While I played a very small bit with some Kuk Sool folks through a Hapkido school I had a connection to many years ago, I had almost no exposure to any of it and really would not be comfortable in commenting on it. But, may be work a look for you.
Lastly, I did read a snippet about an art called Sunmudo or maybe Seonmudo. I have zero experience here other than when I read about the secrecy and whatnot, I didn't get a good feeling from it. Just my personal opinion. From what very little bit I saw, it very much reminded me about all of the "Shaolin Temples" that popped up all over China. I could be completely and totally wrong on that. Just point out that it may be something for you to investigate more.
I do know that Buddhism has a stong foothold in Korea and came there from China in, around, the 4th century. There are a number of sects of Buddhism in Korea and I know that they differ on fairly significant doctrines than the Buddhism I am familiar with (primarily) through the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality School (this school has elements of Buddhism as well as Taoism). One of the notes I have in my software referenced the Jingak Order as being esoteric in nature. But, it is relatively new and I would not be able to speak to it or the teachings that they have.
If you have an interest in the various esoteric traditions, I would really suggest you have a look to the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality School (of Taoism). Not trying to convert you or anything! LOL! Just that there is a wide body of esoteric topics and teachings that have a very direct connection to the martial arts. I have found enough information within this tradition to keep me studying, learning and practicing for the next several lifetimes. Just a thought. I am certainly willing to discuss with you any of esoteric systems or concepts that you like (if I have anything to share that is).
Hope this helps!
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For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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on the post.
