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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 391

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:14 pm    Post subject: The karate and Kung Fu that makes Tang Soo Do? Reply with quote

Ok this is a strange title but here is the thing, culturally speaking, TSD is recognized culturally as karate because they use many similar traditions.

This got me wondering one thing, if you break it down, you get Karate, Kung Fu and Taekkyon in Tang Soo do. I am curios to know how do the kung fu and karate styles within tang soo do flow together?

Like what specific aspect is karate and kung fu?

I have had a hard time deciphering it because I can easily detect the taekkyon in TSD but not the karate or the kung fu.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly some of the hyung can fall into the karate side, such as the nahanchi series found in TSD. I would not be surprised, either, to learn that some of the other hyung are cognates from kung fu. If you're unsure about a technique, I would say that a general rule of thumb (and a very loose one, at that) would be the harder the technique the liker it is that it comes from karate, the softer the technique, and the more it flows, is kung fu. Exceptions aside, it's how I generally gauge things within my own martial arts.

All-in-all, it's going to be so hard to tell at this point. We are far enough away from the original styles from which sprung our modern ones that it becomes increasingly difficult to know for sure which technique came from where. Adding to this mix the penchant for martial arts to be surrounded by so many legends and myths, it's just too muddled. I suggest maybe finding a book on the history of TSD, or Korean MA in general. That might give you some more detailed answers.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29539
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly don't see much more Kung Fu influence in it than is in most other Karate styles. I also think there tends to be a desire to believe that there is more Kung Fu influence than there actually is.

As far as the Taekkyon influence goes, I don't believe there is much Taekkyon influence to be found in TSD or TKD. Perhaps the inclination to do spinning and jumping kicks stem from Taekkyon, but not much more than that, and you don't see much of that in many of the traditional forms.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see very much Kung Fu influence in Karate at all. Whenever one sees the techniques of Kung Fu compared to Karate Techniques, for me, it's night and day.



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Tyler
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanshu Kata shares its origin in My shorin ryu to Tang Soo Do. Very much connected indeed

Wanshu Kata is practiced in various Korean styles of Martial arts, such as Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do. Wanshu is rather short but technically a difficult Kata, much different than the Kata Seisan or Ananku. Many of the techniques are with blocks and canters made simultaneously Wanshu has been traced back to 1695 which makes it about 300 years old.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyler wrote:
Wanshu Kata shares its origin in My shorin ryu to Tang Soo Do. Very much connected indeed

Wanshu Kata is practiced in various Korean styles of Martial arts, such as Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do. Wanshu is rather short but technically a difficult Kata, much different than the Kata Seisan or Ananku. Many of the techniques are with blocks and canters made simultaneously Wanshu has been traced back to 1695 which makes it about 300 years old.

Just curious about where you get that 1695 date.
Whenever I try to look up history or origins of kata, I can never find any real solid evidence beyond the mid 1800s.
Obviously if it was being trained in 1860, itís pretty likely it was trained at least for a while before that, but 100+ years seems like a stretch to assume.
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Tyler
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Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lions Den,

Here is one of the links and if you google search there wil be more.

https://www.sfisshinryu.com/2011/12/17/wansu-kata/
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scohen0300
Orange Belt
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Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 227
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Tang Soo Do

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding of Tang Soo Do is that itís almost a clear blend between Shotokan and Shorin Ryu. For example, when practicing the Pyung forms, I see elements that resemble more Shorin Ryu, and other elements that resemble more Shotokan. Certain stances resemble more Shorin Ryu, while certain hand techniques resemble more Shotokan, for example. Other than the Pal Che forms and other advanced forms (which Iíve only seen, not learned yet, so I canít speak on those), I donít really see anything that makes me think of Kung Fu.

The basic Hyung make me think of the beginner kata that most Shotokan schools teach. The 5 Pyung forms are just another variation of the 5 Pinan/Heian kata, and they of course have their own version of the 3 Naihanchi/Tekki kata. Unfortunately, thatís all Iíve learned up to so far, but even some advanced kata in Shorin Ryu and Shotokan have some ďflowyĒ aspects to them, which might make someone think of Kung Fu. Since my original style was Shorin Ryu though, thatís what comes to mind for me.

Iíll certainly be heading into my next class with this topic in mind!
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