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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 130
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Fat Cobra wrote:
One of my favorite quotes:

"Pain is the best instructor but no one wants to attend his class!"

Train hard my friends!


With respect, I'll add that to my list of terrible quotes along with, no pain no gain, pain is weakness leaving the body, and fall down seven times get up 8 times.

Pain is evolutionary genius. Pain tells us that physical damage is being done. It's message is, 'keep doing that and you will develop life changing injury or you might even die'.

Of course we don't learn that message often until we have actually caused significant damage to ourselves. One of the most highly regarded individuals in history, Mohamed Ali, worked through the pain. He realised that to be the best of the best in his game he needed more than the ability to keep punching. He needed to be able to absorb his opponents punches. In his prime he seemed indestructible. Towards the end he could barely even speak. His brain had just taken too many knocks.

Sports science has moved on a lot in the last couple of decades. All the old pain related 'inspirational' sayings have long been discredited. Even in the field of combat sport we're seeing a shift towards sensible precautions.

Pain is indeed a good teacher. It teaches us to stop doing things that are stupid.


One Kick Wonder, I agree with you with respect to us learning about safe practices in training and the ability to understand our bodies and what they are telling us. I also agree that certain old practices were unsafe and should no longer be conducted because they can cause long term physical damage.

However...I also believe that one of the most important things to develop is "toughness." The way I define toughness is a person's ability to overcome adverse mental and physical conditions. Being tough does mean falling down 7 times and getting up 8. If you are training for combat, life protection, or some other similar objective, you must train hard (but smart) to be ready for those situations. It is not a good idea that the first time you are confronted with a situation that is emotionally, psychologically, and physically painful is an actual violent and hostile encounter on the street. No matter what skills you may have learned in the Dojo, if you are not "tough" none of this will matter. Part of developing toughness is confronting pain in the Dojo (albeit controlled pain).
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Cobra wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
Fat Cobra wrote:
One of my favorite quotes:

"Pain is the best instructor but no one wants to attend his class!"

Train hard my friends!


With respect, I'll add that to my list of terrible quotes along with, no pain no gain, pain is weakness leaving the body, and fall down seven times get up 8 times.

Pain is evolutionary genius. Pain tells us that physical damage is being done. It's message is, 'keep doing that and you will develop life changing injury or you might even die'.

Of course we don't learn that message often until we have actually caused significant damage to ourselves. One of the most highly regarded individuals in history, Mohamed Ali, worked through the pain. He realised that to be the best of the best in his game he needed more than the ability to keep punching. He needed to be able to absorb his opponents punches. In his prime he seemed indestructible. Towards the end he could barely even speak. His brain had just taken too many knocks.

Sports science has moved on a lot in the last couple of decades. All the old pain related 'inspirational' sayings have long been discredited. Even in the field of combat sport we're seeing a shift towards sensible precautions.

Pain is indeed a good teacher. It teaches us to stop doing things that are stupid.


One Kick Wonder, I agree with you with respect to us learning about safe practices in training and the ability to understand our bodies and what they are telling us. I also agree that certain old practices were unsafe and should no longer be conducted because they can cause long term physical damage.

However...I also believe that one of the most important things to develop is "toughness." The way I define toughness is a person's ability to overcome adverse mental and physical conditions. Being tough does mean falling down 7 times and getting up 8. If you are training for combat, life protection, or some other similar objective, you must train hard (but smart) to be ready for those situations. It is not a good idea that the first time you are confronted with a situation that is emotionally, psychologically, and physically painful is an actual violent and hostile encounter on the street. No matter what skills you may have learned in the Dojo, if you are not "tough" none of this will matter. Part of developing toughness is confronting pain in the Dojo (albeit controlled pain).


I understand all that.

Before I go on, you can't get up more times than you went down. That's just physics.

Now that's out the way, I think where we disagree is on semantics. I personally make a distinction between pain and discomfort. Many do not make the same distinction. To me, discomfort is receiving a kick or punch or being taken down by someone who applies control and is not trying to break you. Discomfort is training til your muscles ache and you really want to stop but you keep going. Pain on the other hand is a signal from the body that something is being or has become damaged. Pain is a muscle ripping or a bone breaking or enough cells being ruptured to cause a substantial bruise which if hit again, may result in significant injury.

You can develop 'toughness' without having to break things. In fact toughness counts for very little if you can't do very much because several joints are finished or your brain is mush.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2122


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How I have overcome the paradox of martial art training, is by listening to health and fitness experts and trying to incorporate what they have say in my training.

Taking it easy when adding or using new training products and techniques, so as not to do over straining or breaking myself in the excitement of taking on new challenges.

Training injuries are very counterproductive as they slow down the learning and conditioning process, which when happen are (chalked up) as the hard way to learn.

Breaking one's self in training isn't conditioning, when one thinks about it, it is a way to become broken and weaker!

Conditioning is gradual, methodical, tried and tested, that shows quantitative changes and improvements over a reasonable period of time.
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Bulltahr
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 591
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a difference between, post training muscle soreness and "pain".
That stiffness we experience the day after some big session is not permanent damage. Pain (Not discomfort) during training is telling us we need to stop that particular exercise.

Now, if you train several times a week at that high intensity then muscle stiffness will go away as long as you keep it up. Twice a week is not enough, but I'm too old, been there and done it for some years, but when I was a lot younger!!! Now I'm just trying to manage this worn out old body the best I can!
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2122


PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in my 60,s and have had two 3.30 hour intense workouts today; looking forward to getting back at it tomorrow morning.

Of course I'm a little sore in places and tomorrow once I get moving again, I will choose different types of exercises to hit other muscle groups.

As not injured, just a bit fatigued that's all, I train 7 days a week, twice a day if possible.

As I use a health gym in winter months, it is interesting to see the contrast of working out outdoors in an adult jungle gym in the summer, both have there advantages.

The body does adjust its pain thresholds due to regular exercise and stretching, once a person gets over the initial symptoms of exertion, then it is very enjoyable no matter the amount of post soreness.
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