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Kusotare
Purple Belt
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Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: The Secrets to Good Taekwon-Do! Reply with quote

Nice article.

I'm not convinced about the whole sine wave thing.

I understand the reason behind it, but from a combative perspective it doesn't make sense imo.

But this is the bit that interests me the more…

DWx wrote:
7. All movements must begin with a backward motion with very few exceptions. However, once the movement is in motion it should not be stopped before reaching the target.


As a practitioner of classical Japanese bujutsu (Sword and Jujutsu) I'd have to say our aim is to get better at the exact opposite!

We try to avoid pushing off the back foot for example, as it sends your weight backward - prior to moving forward.

In a scenario where fights are won and lost in a matter of one or two seconds - getting the jump on your opponent is key, so sending energy backward before travelling forward may well create additional energy, but they'd be little use for it - if you were already dead at the point the technique landed.

As a say interesting to get a different perspective on things.

K.
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Harkon72
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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with the backward motion initiating each movement either, it may be a style thing but we are taught to move forward, always forward even when blocking.
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JusticeZero
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: The Secrets to Good Taekwon-Do! Reply with quote

Kusotare wrote:
We try to avoid pushing off the back foot for example, as it sends your weight backward - prior to moving forward.
Experiencing inertia as part of acceleration is inevitable in all movements, no matter what you push off with. It can, I suppose, push you up. There is no backward motion imparted by pushing off with the back foot, if you are actually moving your center of mass.
That said, we usually lead with the front leg and fall forward to move, so I can't pull what they're doing apart too much. I don't do it.
Quote:
In a scenario where fights are won and lost in a matter of one or two seconds - getting the jump on your opponent is key, so sending energy backward before travelling forward may well create additional energy, but they'd be little use for it - if you were already dead at the point the technique landed.
It's both nonsensical and a bit impossible to treat the practitioner as a point mass that experiences those two contradictory impulses in sequence. Any movement involving circular movement - that is, most of them unless you fight like a wingchun advocate - will involve launching the counterbalance backward in some fashion.
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Kusotare
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Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most sword schools will teach you to move through the front knee (Hissa no nuki)

The weight is dropped rather than than pushed.

It's complex but involves a good ability to centre oneself.

K.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I should elaborate on both the sine wave and backwards motion. (although I'm no authority on either!)

TBH I hate to use the term "sine wave" as I think it's the wrong description for the movement. It's hard to explain via words along and to save me typing out an explanation I would refer you to these two posts I've made in the past:

http://www.karateforums.com/post489379.html#489379
http://www.karateforums.com/post469615.html#469615

Essentially though it's an attempt to force relaxation between movements.

Backwards motion typically refers to what you do with your hands and your hips and you're not necessarily sending the weight backwards. Probably a bad name for it again. It isn't a massive movement; maybe 2-3 cm of movement there. But again it ties in with the relaxation and the relaxation/expansion/contraction idea. In fundamentals you keep the non-punching/non-blocking hand tight on your hip. On the relaxation part of "sine wave" action you also relax your arms (ties into #6 in this article) and your hand is supposed to naturally come off the hip a bit. You then push up and at the same time draw the hip back a fraction along with the hand you're going to punch with. That is supposed to be be backward motion. Then on driving back down into the stance you simultaneously snap the hips back into place. Similarly applies to sequences where the hand is off the hip and already doing something. Maybe "little wind up" is a better term?

Am trying to find a good video to illustrate.
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Kusotare
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Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yes Tsuki - or thrust - direct from the centre does tend to be rather common in Japanese ma.

K.
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JusticeZero
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but fencing schools will teach you to snap the counterbalancing arm back as a part of a lunge. That seemed somewhat similar. Furthermore, the amount of acceleration you can achieve from only moving your center of balance using the mass of your front leg with an inert rear leg is limited by the mass of your leg and the gravity of the Earth.
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Kusotare
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Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Perhaps I should elaborate on both the sine wave and backwards motion. (although I'm no authority on either!)

TBH I hate to use the term "sine wave" as I think it's the wrong description for the movement. It's hard to explain via words along and to save me typing out an explanation I would refer you to these two posts I've made in the past:

http://www.karateforums.com/post489379.html#489379
http://www.karateforums.com/post469615.html#469615

Essentially though it's an attempt to force relaxation between movements.

Backwards motion typically refers to what you do with your hands and your hips and you're not necessarily sending the weight backwards. Probably a bad name for it again. It isn't a massive movement; maybe 2-3 cm of movement there. But again it ties in with the relaxation and the relaxation/expansion/contraction idea. In fundamentals you keep the non-punching/non-blocking hand tight on your hip. On the relaxation part of "sine wave" action you also relax your arms (ties into #6 in this article) and your hand is supposed to naturally come off the hip a bit. You then push up and at the same time draw the hip back a fraction along with the hand you're going to punch with. That is supposed to be be backward motion. Then on driving back down into the stance you simultaneously snap the hips back into place. Similarly applies to sequences where the hand is off the hip and already doing something. Maybe "little wind up" is a better term?

Am trying to find a good video to illustrate.


So, if you had to describe a cadence to your technique would it be:

1

Or

1,2

?

K.
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Kusotare
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Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
Yes, but fencing schools will teach you to snap the counterbalancing arm back as a part of a lunge. That seemed somewhat similar. Furthermore, the amount of acceleration you can achieve from only moving your center of balance using the mass of your front leg with an inert rear leg is limited by the mass of your leg and the gravity of the Earth.


That's slightly different.

That is to do with extra reach on the piste and to avoid counter strike.

K.
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DWx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kusotare wrote:
DWx wrote:
Perhaps I should elaborate on both the sine wave and backwards motion. (although I'm no authority on either!)

TBH I hate to use the term "sine wave" as I think it's the wrong description for the movement. It's hard to explain via words along and to save me typing out an explanation I would refer you to these two posts I've made in the past:

http://www.karateforums.com/post489379.html#489379
http://www.karateforums.com/post469615.html#469615

Essentially though it's an attempt to force relaxation between movements.

Backwards motion typically refers to what you do with your hands and your hips and you're not necessarily sending the weight backwards. Probably a bad name for it again. It isn't a massive movement; maybe 2-3 cm of movement there. But again it ties in with the relaxation and the relaxation/expansion/contraction idea. In fundamentals you keep the non-punching/non-blocking hand tight on your hip. On the relaxation part of "sine wave" action you also relax your arms (ties into #6 in this article) and your hand is supposed to naturally come off the hip a bit. You then push up and at the same time draw the hip back a fraction along with the hand you're going to punch with. That is supposed to be be backward motion. Then on driving back down into the stance you simultaneously snap the hips back into place. Similarly applies to sequences where the hand is off the hip and already doing something. Maybe "little wind up" is a better term?

Am trying to find a good video to illustrate.


So, if you had to describe a cadence to your technique would it be:

1

Or

1,2

?

K.

Probably a 1-2 movement. But this is fundamental stuff and not application. As with everything the moves are cut shorter and this kinda stuff is supposed to be made more compact.

See here for examples of the slight pulling back action. Then directly after is the "street" version.
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