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kainekai
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: CANADA
Styles: Kyoshinkai & Hybrid Wrestling

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: I agree and disagree. Reply with quote

Not training for practical combat purposes is like saying I go to school 'not to learn.' But I think this article is to let us think, it creates conflict with differences. People should just train for what they think is right and let the actions of life define 'Right or Wrong.'

In the attempt to tell someone to think outside a personal view, it confines them to ours and we contradict the fact of difference. Just exist.
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IRKguy
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 24

Styles: Isshinryu (currently), Mu Duk Kwan (years ago)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not terribly concerned about being attacked. In most civilized states of the union, a permit to carry a concealed handgun is relatively easy to obtain. If you want to win a street fight, draw a pistol. If you want to learn an effective martial art (martial meaning military) learn to shoot a rifle. There's a reason why the Marine Corps do not teach soldiers to use three-sectioned staves and sai.

Personally, I own a rifle and know how to use it. I own a pistol and know how to use it. As a result, I am qualified by the state I live in to carry it on my person. These weapons make me safe in my home and person; however, I still find a need in my life for studying traditional martial arts.

I want the art I study to be effective, but that has more to do with my study of the art than with eventual application and my personal safety. I employ realism to serve the art, not myself.

I believe that my study has dramatically reduced the number of fights I get into. I know nonpractitioners who get jumped on a regular basis, more often than they file their income tax returns. I believe that is due to the way they carry themselves. After each event, they say, "I didn't even know he was there." On the other hand, I can walk through a group of threatening-looking people, make eye contact with that looks like their leader, and bow my head in a respectful greeting. For some reason, this seems to work. Does this work because I know about five differnt ways to snap their necks? Not likely. They have no way of knowing that. Is it because I am carrying a pistol on many occasions? No. they have no way of knowing that either.

This may sound like some Karate Kid cliche, but knowing an art is to know yourself. This is helpful for keeping your sanity, but it also has a practical application. Any predator worth his fangs knows what prey looks like. Predators don't go looking for fights. They go looking for easy meat. I can never understand what people are talking about when they say that they never saw the guy coming. It's just that blindness that predators are looking for. The last time i was jumped, I was drunk, depressed, and out of training, still, once I showed my teeth: a knife, a cat stance, and an intent to some do damage on my way down, my five would-be attackers lost interest. I was in NYC at the time and therefore not carrying. (Also, I don't carry when I'm going to drink.) Still, it was a strangely enlightening experience. They just were not interested in armed prey. They shrugged and kept walking.

This is getting long, but my point is that people seeking the ultimate streetfighting art are going to be disappointed when they find that your average thug will not target a martial artist. For that matter, I've often wondered who these ultimate streetfighters coming up with these systems are. Do you see fights on your streets all that often? If these guys are getting into fights all the time, they might want to rethink their walking habits. For that matter, how often are they attacked by people who are unarmed and alone? I see the benefit of grappling, but not against the average assailant in my neighborhood. Those guys usually attack in groups and with weapons. Good luck using UFC skills against five guys with baseball bats, knives, brick hammers, and pistols. I would think that anyone who has lived long enough to learn something about streetfighting has probably lost a limb, sustained some major brain damage, and walks with a severe limp. If he's come up with a reasonable fighting style after that, so be it. Go to it if you want to end up like him and if he can limp his way through the classes.

For everyone else, the study of a traditional martial art is essentially internal. You do it mostly for reasons you can't explain to people who don't do it, and those who do it don't need explanations. You either do it because you love the art or you're doing it for some stupid reason that will fade away once you realize that you're doing it because you love the art. The reason you come for is not the reason you stay for.
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But never to your actions' fruits.
Act for the action's sake,
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BLueDevil
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 300
Location: Amarillo, TX
Styles: American Kempo, Hung Gar, BJJ, muay Thai, just began Ryu Te

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly I know I joined MA for the self-discovery aspect. And fighting was a secondary aspect. I beleived at the time I could fight already(I know what my limitations are now, had I run into someone that could actually trowdown but thats beside the point) I continue to push myself to new levels of health and awareness, that is to me more important than knowing how to fight, and I attribute that to MA. All in all I really enjoyed the article.
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Why_Worry
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Cherry Hill (Hills of Cherrys)
Styles: Karate

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great point. Besides in my form of martial arts we focuse on improving ourselves through kata and drills and meditation and i think of how i can be prepared for a street fight as the last thing. Even so, karate has increased my fighting ability by a great amount the little over a year i have been taking it. If you ask me full contact fighting just creates an artificial enviroment where your only goal is to reach your oponent and not do proper form or technique and not use your chi/ki and if you train properly, you should have no need to fight as you have nothing to prove and are fine not fighting.

Great article and the name of my style is Wado Ryu or The peaceful Way which if you look at the symbol they have a dove for peace isntead of fighting.
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atalaya
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 88
Location: USA-varies
Styles: kyokushin, goju-ryu, aikido

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:39 pm    Post subject: the "true" way Reply with quote

martial arts often use the suffix -do (meaning "way"). "do" is used to denote a form or path that will lead to enlightenment. there are many "ways" of life; flower arrangement, pottery, carpentry, et cetera- but if you choose a "martial" way to reach enlightenment you must pursue that course and not get caught up in "the thick of thin things."
that being said- we are not all short swords. there was a good movie made about an ex-sword fighting instructor who was sent by his clan to kill a man who was an expert in war. the ex teacher was out of practice and lived a very stale life, but was able to defeat his opponent because his opponent used a long sword in a house, instead of a short sword which has a greater advantage in closed quarters. -my point- we are not all boxers. i admire traditional tkd, but could never practice it because i am not a tkd practitioner. to quote a great sailor "i yam what i yam."
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Jay
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1190


PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snazzed wrote:
Lets face it if all you want to know is how to fight, you are better off taking boxing for a year. If all you want to know is how to fight, I imagine you would get pretty frustrated in Karate... "What do you mean it'll take at least 5 years to get a Black Belt!?!??!"


Frankly, the black belt has nothing to do with your fighting ability. If you're learning a karate that doesn't prepare you to fight, then it isn't a good karate. It may be stockful of the other benefits that I consider positive that you can gain from martial arts. I'm not going to open up a boxing vs. karate debate. Let's just say I've boxed before but it was karate that I chose to continue...
my thoughts exactly but it should have been prepare to defend yourself not fight
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Rokusho_Tao
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Missouri, United States
Styles: Youn Wha Ryu TKD(1st degree Green), Kendo (black), Judo (White)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love your article, dude.
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neaS
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3
Location: england
Styles: shotokan ufc

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,,,, I have just registerd with this site. My name is Sean and I live in England.
OK...If you would care to read through this and make up your own mind

I trained in trad karate shotokan and other styles judo etc getting a brown belt in Karate in 1986.
I stopped training because I couldnt see any future in what I was doing,,, and here it is,,,,,,,it is the instructor,, be carefull about your instruction,,,,,,, example being this guy was a 5th dan he was graded by a known Japanese instructor to 2nd dan.After that it was through services to Karate.On one occassion he sparred with me and he got realy heavy,,,,but i could take what he threw at me and although he seemed more skilled,,, he made silly mistakes of slow front kicks,,,,so I grabbed his foot did osoto gari and down he went,,,,,I then attacked him while he was on his back,,,,,,at his dan rating he should of had techniques to use while on his back,,,he poss did know them but couldnt use them,,, or rather hadnt trained them enough to AUTOMATE them,,,he had no answer ... the street fighter in me came through and he wasnt trained enough to re-act,,,,,,, get my point???? AUTOMATE THE CORRECT TECHNIQUE,,,there are lots of defence MOVES from the ground in trad karate. I felt I was taught incorrectly to punch and kick,,,because he and other instructers i knew hadnt EITHER KNOWN been taught OR AUTOMATED or used what they had,,, in a real fight scenario,,,,

MEANWHILE I kept training on my own and with training partners.

We used weights running and would throw lots of punches and kicks on pads. I more or less taught my self how to punch very fast and very hard,,,,,, bare knucke... both hands ,,, my punching technique and training must have been incorrect because i had lots of hand injuries,,,,.but the true teachings of Karate is to condition the hands and feet??? If you meet and study with the right person,,,,this is my point again. The teachings are there to be learned but (and i hate doing this as it should have already been there for me to learn and automate and taught by a good teacher ) can the Sensi/ teacher do it themselves????in a real bareknucle fight self defense situation????? none of mine could.

I have had lots and lots of real (legal) everthing goes fights(YEP INCLUDING THE DIRTY STUFF) none of which I started,,, call them on par with street fights in my time and got hand injuries and picked up damage to my body. I have been hit on the head with a wooden baseball bat 5 to 6 times before i stopped the guy,,, I have been hit from behind with glass ash trays , bottles and all kinds of wonderfull things that fellow nice humans(my theory on that is we evolved from humanids who must have used branches for weapons so realy just a technical progression spose in them days the humanids didnt get in trouble,,they didnt have laws as of today for carrying weapons so i train my fists) do to others . I have been beat on some occasions because i didnt knock the guy out,,,,,,then through constant research and trial and error i came up with the correct method of training bare knucke punching,,,,,,,in other words hitting with the correct part of the fist,,and perfecting the leverage,,which is automated by constant progressive high rep punching. Some Japanese sensie i have seen on vidios have this ability,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,some are hitting with the wrong part of their,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, fist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yep and say good bye to the two outer knuckles when you hit something realy hard boss man karate man,,,now after all this time I have the correct technique where my hands are fine after in one session 2 hundred realy hard fast constant bare knucle punches against objects that do damage to other peoples hands untill they have taken the progressive route.,,

I am now back again working out the methods of trad karate,,,,i have trained (or rather they have trained with me) successfull boxers cage fighters people who work on the doors,,,,,and i am still training me

It appears to me that the true effective (if they practiced them for more reps Sensei AUTOMATE SENSIE AUTOMATE boss man) are in the higher dan katas/
bunkai,,,,,but i see them practiced analised and here we have it again ,,, not AUTOMATED,,,,OR EVEN ATTEMPTED TO BE USED IN SPARRING????aint that why people sparr????,so i am now learning the higher grade katas /bunkai,,,, and will see if they can be used in a real situation and if they can they will have to be automated.Does any body have details on some kata /bunkai???...be great if i could see them...

I also analise ufc fighters,,,,some are using higher dan techniques trad karete??? as as well as basics,,,for real,,,the early ufc fights were 95% for real,,,,,
about as close as a persen can get,,,,
Right trad karate can be a foundation for correct self defence if it is trained correctly,,,spose others have differant opinions,,,,but all humans have limbs and it is what you do with them that counts
IF ANY BODY WOULD LIKE TO E MAIL ME IM ON TRAINER1@ROCK.COM

SEAN
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shogeri
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 663

Styles: Instructor in Internal, External, Mixed Styles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost, I agree with many aspects and or thoughts posted here.

Indeed the Martial Arts are about fighting.

However, equally important to doing harm or causing death, is giving health and nurturing life.

The Martial Arts are about preservation. One cannot truly only do the fighting aspects, and expect to reap the largest rewards.

In other words, one cannot expect to do only the fighting, and take for granted that they are equally giving time to the health and life, since they are expecting the health attributes or results to just be a side effect of their martial training.

It takes focused time and effort to both.

In sum, and I may be repeating myself here:

I believe it is in the best interest of any Martial Artist to examine the internal characteristics of their Martial Art training that directly relates to balancing their internal system, and building upon their fighting ability, as they continue strengthening the bond between their mind and body.

Again, it is a great article, as it pointed out many things people should consider.


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Current:Head Instructor - ShoNaibuDo - TCM/Taijiquan/Chinese Boxing Instructor
Past:TKD ~ 1st Dan, Goju Ryu ~ Trained up 2nd Dan - Brown belt 1 stripe, Kickboxing (Muay Thai) & Jujutsu Instructor

Be at peace, and share peace with others...
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Balrog
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 104


PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: The Street Fighter Excuse Reply with quote

WapCaplet wrote:

If we DO agree on this, then why is there this pervasive mentality that the BEST martial art is the one that makes you into the best fighter? Especially in todayís society where we DONíT have to defend our lives on a daily basis.


IMNSHO, we have the movie industry to thank for this, with the hundreds and hundreds of movies that portray martial artists as people who swagger down the street, kicking everybody else's butt right, left and sideways. And sad to say, there is a significant portion of our population that tends to think that is normal, acceptable behaviour.
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