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WapCaplet
Orange Belt
Joined: 29 Sep 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Calgary, Canada
Styles: Shotokan Karate
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: The Street Fighter Excuse |
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community.
I’ve now read numerous posts regarding martial arts and the reasons for picking one or another and I always hear the argument about street fighting. “I want to pick the best martial art for street fighting” or “my martial art is the most practical in terms of self-defense and being able to win a fight on the street” or whatever. I know not everybody feels this way, but there seems to be a consistent mentality around martial arts and street fighting that leads many people to believe that the best martial art is the one that makes you into the best fighter.
I’ve read discussions regarding full contact training and heard people say that full contact is the only way to go because it’s the only way to train for a real fight. I’ve heard beginner martial artists say that they only want to take a martial art that is the “truest” representation of real fighting. It’s like there’s an obsession with wanting to be able to kick anyone’s butt.
But here’s my question: is that what martial arts training TODAY is really all about? Or has martial arts training evolved as we have?
Let’s make no mistake here, though. Martial arts are fighting arts. We all understand that they have their origins in learning how to defeat an opponent and how to defend yourself against an attacker. Martial arts did not develop out of a need to learn something cool or to focus the mind through the use of a set of predetermined moves (kata). They originated out of a need to fight and win. And back then, they needed it.
Do we really still need to know how to fight?
Granted, knowing some degree of self-defense can be very helpful, primarily as a source of confidence. But, I wonder how many of us are actually at risk of getting attacked enough times in our lives to warrant knowing how to “street fight” effectively.
Personally, I have never been in a serious fight. Certainly not one serious enough that I needed any martial arts training. But, I’m sure some people have. However, I don’t think the majority of us have.
So, I’m speaking about the majority here.
Does it make sense to train for 6-8 years in a martial art, 4-5 times a week, through rigorous physical endurance, just for the chance that you MIGHT one day get into a street fight? Is that pay-off worth it? Maybe it is for some people. Personally, if that’s the only reason I’m training, I think I’m wasting my time or perhaps training out of fear. Now I don’t think most people have this attitude, but I think there is an underlying (mis)understanding that taking martial arts is important because it will teach you how to fight. Yes, it will, but is that the most important aspect? Should the MAIN REASON for taking a martial art be so that you can beat someone else up or defend yourself in the rare case that you ever get seriously attacked?
Or are the reasons for taking a martial art more complex than that? Perhaps martial art training is good for the mind, as well as the body. Perhaps martial art training is a great social activity. Perhaps the techniques, kata, philosophy, focus, strength, endurance and health aspects are more important than the ability to fight. Perhaps the ability fight is merely a byproduct of the martial arts training. I think most people would agree with this.
If we DO agree on this, then why is there this pervasive mentality that the BEST martial art is the one that makes you into the best fighter? Especially in today’s society where we DON’T have to defend our lives on a daily basis. Sure, society is getting pretty bad, with gangs and drugs and violence and what not. But, that is really pretty limited to the way things were 2,000 years ago (or longer). Back then society and laws did not really protect a person the way they do today. Back then, you had to be ready to defend yourself or die. Today, your chances of getting seriously attacked are pretty slim (depending on where you live) and if you do, it’s more than likely that your attacker will have a gun; something martial arts doesn’t help a lot with since there were no guns back when the martial arts first originated.
Now, having said all that, I’m sure I’m going to get an earful (eyeful?) of opinions to the contrary from people who train in ninjitsu or whatever martial arts focus primarily on fighting for the sake of fighting. The only point I’m trying to make and perhaps doing a terrible job of making it, is that perhaps the “fighting” aspect of martial arts should not be the first, most important aspect of what makes a martial art good or right for someone.
I’ve always believed that the first question someone should ask themselves when they think about starting to take a martial art is “what do I want to get out of it?” You need to be able to answer that question confidently before you’ll ever know what martial art to take and long before anyone else can TELL you what martial art to take. And if your answer to that question is “because I want to be an awesome street fighter” then perhaps you need to re-evaluate a few things. If someone with that philosophy approached Gichin Funakoshi 80 years ago for karate training, he would probably tell them to go away and come back when they want to learn karate as a way of leading a non-violent lifestyle.
“Refrain from violent behavior”.
I know that is a Shotokan karate philosophy, but it’s an important one. Maybe it should say “refrain from violent intentions”. If your primary purpose for taking a martial art is so that YOU can be a violent person (when the opportunity presents itself), then maybe that says something.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on far too long and I’m still not sure I’m getting my point across. I’m not saying that the martial arts are NOT about fighting. If you think that’s what I mean then I have failed miserably in getting my point across. What I’m trying to say is that the “fighting” aspect of martial arts is not the most important aspect anymore. In today’s society, we don’t really NEED to train our whole lives for the small chance that we might one day be attacked and need to defend ourselves with our hands and feet. Rather, train for the physical fitness, train for the focus, train for the technique, the fun, the people, the confidence, the strength, the endurance, the style, the grace, the balance, the speed, the power and the hundreds of other aspects of martial arts that are not about trying to kill or maim another human being. Do all that and yes, it will make you a better fighter. But that’s just a by-product; a bonus. The end result is not a killer fighter. The end result is someone with honor, respect, integrity and patience. Someone who knows how to avoid a fight. Someone who knows how to defuse a potentially violent situation. Someone who “knows when to walk away and knows when to run.” I hope we all agree with that.
Perhaps I have been biased by my Shotokan training. Perhaps I am biased because I don’t feel like my life is in danger on a daily basis. I’m certainly biased for any number of reasons.
However, the next time someone asks me what the best martial art for them is, I will ask them what they want to get out of it. And if they tell me that they want to be an awesome fighter, I’ll tell them to join the army. But if they want to talk about style, strength, integrity and philosophy, well then the choices are limitless.
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"Fighting fighting. Same Same"
"But you know karate!"
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Patrick
KF Administrator
Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 28758
Location: Los Angeles, California
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snazzed
Yellow Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada
Styles: Chito-Ryu, Shotokan, McHapkido
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent article. In talking with newcomers to the dojo, they often bring up fighting and "real world" application. I often find myself telling them that most of us STARTED taking Karate to learn how to fight, but fighting is not why we stay in formal martial arts.
Lets face it if all you want to know is how to fight, you are better off taking boxing for a year. If all you want to know is how to fight, I imagine you would get pretty frustrated in Karate... "What do you mean it'll take at least 5 years to get a Black Belt!?!??!"
We may come to Karate (or other MAs) to learn to fight, but we only STAY for other reasons.
snazzed |
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Red J
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 2278
Location: WPB, FL
Styles: Shaolin Kempo Sandan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for a great read. You have a well thought out article that makes some excellent points. Like I've heard and said before, training is a journey with many benefits.
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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My philosophy is that they are martial arts for a reason. Certainly one should not go out looking for fights, and if you never get in a fight, then that's just fine. However, if you're not primarily concerned about the martial aspect, then there are plenty of other things you could do and still gain the other benefits of confidence, discipline, respect and self-balance that I feel are great bonuses from the practice of the martial arts.
I also disagree with the statement:
| snazzed wrote: |
| Lets face it if all you want to know is how to fight, you are better off taking boxing for a year. If all you want to know is how to fight, I imagine you would get pretty frustrated in Karate... "What do you mean it'll take at least 5 years to get a Black Belt!?!??!" |
Frankly, the black belt has nothing to do with your fighting ability. If you're learning a karate that doesn't prepare you to fight, then it isn't a good karate. It may be stockful of the other benefits that I consider positive that you can gain from martial arts. I'm not going to open up a boxing vs. karate debate. Let's just say I've boxed before but it was karate that I chose to continue...
| WapCaplet wrote: |
| Today, your chances of getting seriously attacked are pretty slim (depending on where you live) and if you do, it’s more than likely that your attacker will have a gun; something martial arts doesn’t help a lot with since there were no guns back when the martial arts first originated |
I would argue that the legalistic nature of many societies where the open carrying of weapons is mostly prohibited, the likelihood of you having to use martial arts to defend yourself is still valid if you are attacked. Yes, many of those who will attack you have no regard for the rule of law and might have guns. But there are also those that will do so without the use of guns. It always kills me to think that a plane could have been hijacked with the use of boxcutters...
WapCaplet, I understand your message. You're saying that fighting ability is important, but isn't the main focus. It's just that I disagree with this. Some of it has to do with the fact that I don't need karate or martial arts to become "someone with honor, respect, integrity and patience. Someone who knows how to avoid a fight. Someone who knows how to defuse a potentially violent situation. Someone who 'knows when to walk away and knows when to run'." Another part of it is I feel I can be dedicated to the fighting aspect of it and still gain all the other benefits you mentioned. But since fighting is a skill, constant practice and diligence has to be maintained in order for it to develop. My instructor always tells me that a martial artist has only three responsibilites and I really like his philosophy. You have to maintain your integrity, stay healthy, and always get better. You can't get better in the martial aspect by keeping it on the back-burner. As my father always said to me when growing up, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well."
Without getting into a deontological/ontological debate on the worth of martial arts, I just want to say that it is important to preserve the martial aspect of the martial arts. I even consider it to be the primary focus of my training. The other benefits occupy an equal emphasis, but let's face it: during a two and a half hour practice, unless you spend it simply doing meditation or moral discussion, what else are you going to practice? If you're going to do it, you might as well do it right.
But do I really care if people are learning what I consider to be a less than effective martial art? Not really. Does it bother me that some people emphasize the martial aspect much less? A little, but again, I'm not too concerned, as there are many that do not. If you want to do it because you have fun and gain a lot of spiritual, mental, health or character benefits at the expense of fighting ability, then by all means, please do so. I've never seen the need to do that. In fact, I think it is the exacting nature and discipline required to learn fighting with all of its subtleties and maintaining its applicability to a real fight that aids in gaining those benefits.
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Cmon
Orange Belt
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 207
Styles: Jeet Kune Do
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Really good read. I think you point is good. Martial arts is not just for the point of becoming an awseome fighter. I personnaly took MA to become more confident within myself. I think it is basic instinct in humans especially males to be able to protect yourself and those who you love. When i go to my classes i enjoy learning the art and i have been taught that in a fight always run first fighting is the last resort, once you have the opportunity to run ...run. There is a difference between learning a MA to be able to fight and learning an MA to be a good fighter. Yes i could just do boxing for a year and be able to fight, beat my opponent to the floor and break his skull. But becoming a good fighter i would be able to defuse the situation quickly. |
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Skeptic 2004
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Okinawa
Styles: Shorin-Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:51 am Post subject: |
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A quick definition of "martial" in Webster's is, "experienced in or inclined to war." War is the application of violence; therefore, the martial arts are such that they are experienced in and inclined to the application of violence. If what you're doing isn't doing that, then it's not a martial art. It's something else. One must never lose sight of the fighting aspect; it is paramount.
That being said, I've discovered as they years go by that the more I focus on the fighting aspects of Shorin-Ryu the less violent I have become. I'm more hesitant now to engage in a physical confrontation than I ever was before I started taking karate. Why? It's the fear and respect for the power and responsibility that comes with my training. Enjoying the communion of brotherhood with your fellow dojo-kun, getting great exercise, and focusing on the mental and spiritual aspects are all good things and have their places; but these alone do not teach you to truly fear and respect what it is you are doing.
Let me provide a very cheesy illustration. I've had the fortune to undergo some combat arms training and recently (uh...8 months ago) qualified on the Beretta M9. There are other aspects to the gun that each could merit it's own study or focus: the mechanical engineering of the gun itself, the thermodynamics involved in projecting the bullet, the aerodynamics involved in the bullet's flight to its intended target. I could have talked about guns with the person I sat next to (an avid hunter) and had a great time. I could have debated with my instructor about gun control laws or the appropriate use of violence and nonviolence. But, If I hadn't come to the shooting range prepared to learn a skill that would save my life at the expense of my enemy's, I probably wouldn't have qualified on the gun. if I hadn't focused on the fact that the M9 is a lethal weapon that could seriously injure or kill someone, I wouldn't have had enough sense to not point it at other people or myself whether incidentally or as a joke on the firing range when it was loaded. It just would have been another cleverly engineered gadget - not a weapon.
By emphasizing the fighting aspects of one's training one will seriously (and not just superficially) realize the horrific power and brutal responsibility that comes with such training. Only then could someone truly "refrain from violent intention" (notice how the people who clamor for war and violence tend to be those who have never experienced it themselves?).
To address the matter of retention, I stay because I want to get better. Shorin Ryuu said, "Fighting is a skill." I agree, and it is a skill that I want to get better at more than anything. It is my pursuit of this skill over the last 5 years, my focus on the fighting aspects of my training, that I have been able to enjoy the benefits of brotherhood, exercise, the development of my mental acumen, and the occasional spiritual awakening. Focusing on the fighting aspects of the martial arts does not make these other elements mutually exclusive. By learning how to fight, I am learning how to live.
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Snakeeel
Yellow Belt
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
Styles: Kung Fu San Soo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Skeptic...you hit the nail on the head...outstanding commentary. Great piece. |
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AngryMatt
Yellow Belt
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, BJJ, Freestyle wrestling
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I know it was said before, but Skeptic is on the money here. I am a relatively inexperienced guy when it comes to MAs. But I am a BIG GUY and proficient in freestyle wrestling.
Do you know what it's like walking around at 6'2" 230 knowing that if you don't watch your own strength someone is going to get hurt?
I may have just a few months of JJJ under my belt, but I know far more than I did in early December! My sensei echoes the sentiments of Skeptic: The better you get the more appreciation you have for the weapon that is the body. We are so fragile and yet so powerful. It's alarmingly easy to really hurt or kill someone if given even a moderate amount of training.
So for most people it results in a horror at your own skill when it comes to street situations. You learn to back off in cases that if you were unskilled, you'd take a swing. But if you DO get in real trouble, knowing a combat art is going to serve you well. It's going to end badly for your attacker, but the goal is to survive right?
As someone who prefers having a firearm at his side, and not being allowed to while at school just outside the big city of Chicago, I think I do need to learn this combat art. I'm Southern suburb/rural boy in a Midwestern big city - big time transplant and I have no "street skills." And since I won't be living here for very long I don't have time to develop said skills, but I CAN develop my combat skills.
It will help me avoid confrontations that don't need to happen and survive if something unavoidable occurs.
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"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness."
-The Book of the Void (A Book of Five Rings)
"Men don't start fights, but they do finish them." |
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Muaythaiboxer
Brown Belt
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 683
Location: kansas
Styles: teakwondo judo muaythai boxing wresling kung-fu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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i dident really like the article. basicly if your not training to learn how to fight why train in the martial arts? if you want a workout there are tons of arobic and yoga classes out there, just about any sport out there gives you disaplen so why train in the martial arts if you dont train to learn how to fight?
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on the post.
