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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with most of bushido_man96's comments.
Also just wanted to add that many instructors are now using terms like "protective offense" or "self protection", i personally would rather use the term self protection, has opposed to self defense. |
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nine_weapons
Orange Belt
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 155
Styles: muay thai, judo, bjj
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| marie curie wrote: |
IMHO,
Defending is not when I get punched and then attack- that is not self-defense; that is revenge.
Defending is when I get punched at then attack. When I defend myself I am taking a preventative measure against becoming a victim.
Although, I never really thought of it offense/defense, I think of it as defense/punishment, because I don't attack people unless they attack me... disliking jail and such...  |
I may be wrong, but I think this is along the lines of what BM was talking about - this is more of a victim style mindset. you won't attack unless you are attacked first. I on the other hand will attack FIRST If I feel an attack is inevidable. This is the pre-emptive strike which he referred to.
In many schools, they teach only to defend, and not to attack unless you are attacked first. I won't say this is a bad thing per se, but it can place you in the situation of not having time to use your skills to defend yourself, because that one strike may have been all it took for him to KO you. |
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nine_weapons
Orange Belt
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 155
Styles: muay thai, judo, bjj
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| KarateEd wrote: |
bushido_man96,
While defending oneself from an attack does imply that the person is a victim (regardless of whether the perps succeed or not) I don't think the use of the term conditions one to feel like a victim. Additionally, I think with frequent and long term training, defense against an attack is not so much "reactionary" as "actionary." This may be splitting hairs, but it is my belief that "reaction" requires a certain amount of thought, which is what I train to remove. As Takuan Soho states, in his book The Unfettered Mind , thinking sends one's mind to the abiding place, hampering one's ability to perform efficiently in any situation. Also, I agree with mantis.style, a preemptive attack is still a defensive maneuver, albeit a very aggressive one.
Ed |
you may not FEEL like a victim. I don't FEEL like I am getting older, but I am. if you are conditioned to have a defensive mindset, you are conditioning yourself to act like a victim... "If he hits me, I will hit him back" - why not hit him first? to hit first is aggression, seen by some as the opposite of self defense.
This, IMO, has nothing at all to do with the 'no mind' state that you are referring to. You can be trained to instantaneously react without thought. That is the 'no mind' state, but is also defensive, not pre-emptive - a victim mindset. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| nine_weapons wrote: |
| In many schools, they teach only to defend, and not to attack unless you are attacked first. I won't say this is a bad thing per se, but it can place you in the situation of not having time to use your skills to defend yourself, because that one strike may have been all it took for him to KO you. |
Personally, I don't like the defend-first idea, because when you defend (read as "block") first, you have to play on reaction. Reaction is almost always slower than action, because you have to wait to receive the stimulus before you react. Therefore, you are always playing a constant game of catch-up. Not good, in my opinion, when you are trying to defend yourself.
The mindset of "wait for the attack" sounds like "wait to be the victim."
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| nine_weapons wrote: |
| In many schools, they teach only to defend, and not to attack unless you are attacked first. I won't say this is a bad thing per se, but it can place you in the situation of not having time to use your skills to defend yourself, because that one strike may have been all it took for him to KO you. |
Personally, I don't like the defend-first idea, because when you defend (read as "block") first, you have to play on reaction. Reaction is almost always slower than action, because you have to wait to receive the stimulus before you react. Therefore, you are always playing a constant game of catch-up. Not good, in my opinion, when you are trying to defend yourself.
The mindset of "wait for the attack" sounds like "wait to be the victim." |
I completely agree.
There are times when you will be forced to defend first, i.e. surprise attack, and in that case you have to convert your defensive position into offense has soon as possible.
In the event that its not a surprise, then it would be foolish to allow the situation to escalate so far that the aggressor attacks you before you pre-empt, or take other action. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| cross wrote: |
There are times when you will be forced to defend first, i.e. surprise attack, and in that case you have to convert your defensive position into offense has soon as possible.
In the event that its not a surprise, then it would be foolish to allow the situation to escalate so far that the aggressor attacks you before you pre-empt, or take other action. |
Absolutely. One must keep in mind, however, that the attack must be a justifiable one.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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marie curie
Black Belt
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1023
Location: PA, USA
Styles: Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan Karate, Kajukenbo, Kodokan Judo, Gracie Barra Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Tae Kwon Doe
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| nine_weapons wrote: |
| marie curie wrote: |
IMHO,
Defending is not when I get punched and then attack- that is not self-defense; that is revenge.
Defending is when I get punched at then attack. When I defend myself I am taking a preventative measure against becoming a victim.
Although, I never really thought of it offense/defense, I think of it as defense/punishment, because I don't attack people unless they attack me... disliking jail and such... |
I may be wrong, but I think this is along the lines of what BM was talking about - this is more of a victim style mindset. you won't attack unless you are attacked first. I on the other hand will attack FIRST If I feel an attack is inevidable. This is the pre-emptive strike which he referred to.
In many schools, they teach only to defend, and not to attack unless you are attacked first. I won't say this is a bad thing per se, but it can place you in the situation of not having time to use your skills to defend yourself, because that one strike may have been all it took for him to KO you. |
I don't worry about getting in the first punch, but if someone attacks me, I'm going to defend myself well...very well. and if they end up in the hospital or something, I'd rather not end up in jail, thank you very much 
_________________
You suck-train harder.......................Don't block with your face
A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving.
-Lao Tzu |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't worry about getting in the first punch, but if someone attacks me, I'm going to defend myself well...very well. and if they end up in the hospital or something, I'd rather not end up in jail, thank you very much |
How many times have you successfully defended yourself in training after being hit first? If youve never do it even in training, perhaps you have a false sense of ability. |
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marie curie
Black Belt
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1023
Location: PA, USA
Styles: Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan Karate, Kajukenbo, Kodokan Judo, Gracie Barra Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Tae Kwon Doe
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have to actually get hit, for someone else to strike first. I can block that arm or whatever, evade it, or maybe even attack it. The point is that he makes the first move.
I typically wait for the other person in training. I hate when I have to strike first.... of course what I hate more is when you are trying to fight someone and they just keep backing away... dumb people with really long legs and no desire to actually spar... anyway off topic too much... I get hit first plenty.
_________________
You suck-train harder.......................Don't block with your face
A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving.
-Lao Tzu |
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on the post.
