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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
It's great that you mention the "staying alive" training program, as there is more and more evidence showing that strength training is very important for "the athlete of aging."

It's interesting to me that your cardiologist recommends not to lift anything over your own weight...that means you better not ever gain any weight, or that it's ok only if you gain weight. Either way, I'd first ask what your doctor actually knows about strength training, or if he/she has ever done actual strength training (by which I do not mean "just going to the gym").

A great book, written by Dr. Jonathon Sullivan and Andy Baker, titled The Barbell Prescription is a great resource for the how's, why's, and benefits of strength training for the older population, those in their 40's, 50's, and beyond. It is quite safe and quite beneficial to the older population to strength train. This book fleshes it all out, from how strength training effects the body in more ways than just building muscle, to safe and effective programming training sessions.

See the book here: https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescription-Strength-Training-After/dp/0982522770/ref=sr_1_3?crid=RB2GR2WXXOTB&keywords=the+barbell+prescription+strength+training+after+40&qid=1573079253&sprefix=The+Barbell+Pre%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-3

I know you enjoy YouTube, and fortunately, Dr. Sullivan has a channel, too. Give it a look: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwNjgwAS3wBBxcwouQz5J9w
Thank you for the link; watched the:
The athlete of aging
https://youtu.be/DzBz2z9L6x4

What the cardiologist is saying with a little more in depth explanation is, regarding exercises to not exceed my own weight is to do, push ups, pull ups, dips... calethetics, walking and stretching.

All of my latest tests with the cardiologist are showing up to be normal; also showing an increase in my cardio levels, as the latest treadmill test was more intense than the one before.

Normal for everyone else is just normal, for me this is excellent news.

Just recently came across this video of a martial artist is shutting down doubters for his speed, so he posted a video of himself running at top speed of 13 kilometres per hr.
https://youtu.be/GmdWpreZzbg

My top speed is 19 kilometres per hr and I am more like twice his age, same height perhaps less muscle.

I have a kickboxing friendly with a super strong tuff guy sometime soon, perhaps tomorrow, that got his black belt 5 years ago, that has other MA experience also.

He is about half my age but he hasn't realised that, as I don't look my age, as most guess me to be in my late 40's

I train about 36hrs per week, may be this guy will clean the floor with me or perhaps not, I'll keep you posted, unless I'm hospitalized ROFL
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27927
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, bodyweight exercises, walking and stretching...and what about all this MA training you do? I'm certain it raises your heart rate more than walking does. Like I mentioned earlier, I doubt your cardiologist is educated on strength training, and therefore isn't qualified to comment on it, but does so anyways...because he's a doctor.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
So, bodyweight exercises, walking and stretching...and what about all this MA training you do? I'm certain it raises your heart rate more than walking does. Like I mentioned earlier, I doubt your cardiologist is educated on strength training, and therefore isn't qualified to comment on it, but does so anyways...because he's a doctor.
I asked him if boxing is okay and mokey bars, he said yes.

Two factors he is concerned with, is not to over strain the heart or make it thicker; as I know that heavy weights will do that, whilst cardio exercises will make it bigger.

I get most of my cardio from boxing footwork.

Update:
(I train about 36hrs per week, may be this guy will clean the floor with me or perhaps not, I'll keep you posted, unless I'm hospitalized)


He doesn't want to spar with me now, just to work out
ROFL
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27927
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason strength training with weights will thicken the wall of the heart is because it is making it stronger. That would be bad, right?
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
The only reason strength training with weights will thicken the wall of the heart is because it is making it stronger. That would be bad, right?
Here is your answer from a cardiologist
https://youtu.be/pzwsJG0rtKo

Here is something (I do) that might interest you, that helps with prolonging youthfulness
https://youtu.be/uhw3Op4fVzM

Collagen with vitamin C and magnesium supplements
https://youtu.be/lQu_oo41XZ8
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found a way to settle this topic man to man

Calethetics vs Powerbuilding:
Strength Wars
Who do you think will be the strongest?

https://youtu.be/LYEhr7iJMZw
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27927
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you believe that video settles. It doesn't settle anything in regards to absolute strength. It's like a weird Crossfit competition, which is not a strength competition. It's also not a shock that the guy was 9 kilos heavier had a more difficult time doing the pull-ups, as heavier people in general have a more difficult time doing pull-ups.

At any rate, it's a fairly arbitrary competition between two guys were are pretty good athletes in general, and probably not representative of the population as a whole.

So, in the end, "the strongest" isn't even decided in a competition like this. If anything, the only thing determined was who could finish the requisite reps at the predetermined weight the fastest. So really, it's "the fastest" that was decided.

At any rate, I don't see any reason to carry the conversation on any further.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm not sure what you believe that video settles. It doesn't settle anything in regards to absolute strength. It's like a weird Crossfit competition, which is not a strength competition. It's also not a shock that the guy was 9 kilos heavier had a more difficult time doing the pull-ups, as heavier people in general have a more difficult time doing pull-ups.

At any rate, it's a fairly arbitrary competition between two guys were are pretty good athletes in general, and probably not representative of the population as a whole.

So, in the end, "the strongest" isn't even decided in a competition like this. If anything, the only thing determined was who could finish the requisite reps at the predetermined weight the fastest. So really, it's "the fastest" that was decided.

At any rate, I don't see any reason to carry the conversation on any further.
I believe this video settles that gaining strength can take more than one avenue; as there is no such thing as absolute strength.

Yes it was a weird cross fit competition that is not a true test of their strengths, as a tug of wars or arm wrestling between them might be a better way.

Let's face it, that people excel in what they train for, which includes all those that pick up weights also for those that use their own body weight.

For me it is doing something (exercise) with due care and attention over a long period of time, as opposed to the contrary of doing too much in a short period.

Listening to one's own body takes presidency over everything else, the problem arises when not in tune with one's self enough.

The difference in using free weights and using one's self as the weight is that there is a lot more controlled use of strength in a variety of angles or ranges of motion, than there is with free weights, which is primarily going from A to B and missing the strength benefits inbetween.

Combining the two types of using weights mentioned, just might be the answer, as they both have their advantages.

As for the heart, let's face it, the heart is a muscle that is required to beat for an entire lifetime, over working it or under working it, both extremes don't seem likely to be reasonably sound solutions.

Whereas finding the balance in the middle ground between over doing and under, seems like a reasonable solution to live by.

As for the cardiologist, he or she isn't necessarily interested in patients winning short term races or trophies for athletes or obtaining a military career.

Usaully more from a perspective of long term life expectancies for people, without creating or agrivating more heart complications, by over straining the heart beyond it's natural boundaries.

Going beyond natural boundaries, in the military, tragic stories on their last day of training

https://youtu.be/Q0YuCZJ0RyQ

https://youtu.be/NeJWB07wzrA

https://youtu.be/PUsbNxrt7GM

As for not carrying on a conversation that you started, is your choice.

Howerver this is a daily real life and death issue for me way beyond pleasant conversation.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27927
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is you and I aren't having the same conversation.

There are all kinds of ways to improve health and such. What I've opened this discussion with is the idea that there is an efficient way to get strong, and getting strong is a general physical adaptation, and should not be confused with doing other athletic activities, like basketball, football, baseball, Martial Arts, etc.

The most effective way to get strong it so focus on getting strong through weight training. The best way to get better at Martial Arts is to practice Martial Arts skills during Martial Arts training. When one starts to try to combine the two in the same sessions, by doing "functional training," then it's to the detriment of both.

Strength training, using the barbell weight training system, done properly, uses exercises that can move the most weight possible, over the longest effective range of motion, using the most muscle mass. Exercises are selected to fit these criteria, and the exercises are programmed to complete (usually, but not always) 3 sets of 5 reps across. Then the body rests, allowing for a strength adaptation to occur, and when the athlete returns for the next training session, a small amount of weight can be added to the bar (maybe 5 lbs, maybe 2.5, depending on the lift, the age of the trainee, etc), and the exercises are performed again.

Chin-ups and dips are exercises that fit the criteria listed above, and are good accessory exercises to the main lifts. The problem with these exercises is that not everyone can perform them right away, and hence are not valuable to program right away. Some heavier athletes may not use them, and some older athletes may not, either.

However, it is possible to program this kind of training for the older demographic in a safe and effective manner. Sometimes, very detrained, or untrained, individuals will start out with an empty bar, a lighter training bar, or box squatting, or even standing up out of a chair without a bar. But even these older and untrained individuals can move forward to the point where they can squat with a bar on their back, and deadlift weight from the floor, or press overhead. These individuals will likely not be able to perform any kind of chin-ups or dips for some time, or ever.

The other issue is in the assumptions that when I talk about strength training that I am talking about "bodybuilding" or "power lifting." I've not mentioned those terms when I talk about strength training. The fact of the matter is that the squat, the deadlift, and the press are all natural human movement patterns that every human does throughout the course of their lives. Standing up out of chairs, or off the toilet, or getting out of bed; picking the lawnmower up and putting it in the back of the truck, or picking a box of items up off the floor; lifting an object up overhead to put in a cupboard in the kitchen or on a shelf in the shop; all of these patterns are natural human movement patterns. The squat, deadlift, and press, done with a barbell in hand, allows us to train these movement patterns in an simple, efficient, and effective way. A person with a strong deadlift and a strong squat will have a stronger back, and will be less likely to miss a day of work due to a lower back injury. And if a person can keep their back strong through their 50s, 60s, and 70s retains their independence longer.

Increasing the strength in my legs, back, arms, butt, shoulders, and chest through strength training with barbells makes me stronger in TKD class.

No where have I mentioned anything about power lifting or bodybuilding, other than to say that I'm not, and have not recommended, to power lift or bodybuild.

So, at any rate, I've made my initial point twice, and tried to clarify it many times. I know you don't agree with me, and the conversation goes away from these points, changing the discussion entirely.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
The problem is you and I aren't having the same conversation.

There are all kinds of ways to improve health and such. What I've opened this discussion with is the idea that there is an efficient way to get strong, and getting strong is a general physical adaptation, and should not be confused with doing other athletic activities, like basketball, football, baseball, Martial Arts, etc.

The most effective way to get strong it so focus on getting strong through weight training. The best way to get better at Martial Arts is to practice Martial Arts skills during Martial Arts training. When one starts to try to combine the two in the same sessions, by doing "functional training," then it's to the detriment of both.

Strength training, using the barbell weight training system, done properly, uses exercises that can move the most weight possible, over the longest effective range of motion, using the most muscle mass. Exercises are selected to fit these criteria, and the exercises are programmed to complete (usually, but not always) 3 sets of 5 reps across. Then the body rests, allowing for a strength adaptation to occur, and when the athlete returns for the next training session, a small amount of weight can be added to the bar (maybe 5 lbs, maybe 2.5, depending on the lift, the age of the trainee, etc), and the exercises are performed again.

Chin-ups and dips are exercises that fit the criteria listed above, and are good accessory exercises to the main lifts. The problem with these exercises is that not everyone can perform them right away, and hence are not valuable to program right away. Some heavier athletes may not use them, and some older athletes may not, either.

However, it is possible to program this kind of training for the older demographic in a safe and effective manner. Sometimes, very detrained, or untrained, individuals will start out with an empty bar, a lighter training bar, or box squatting, or even standing up out of a chair without a bar. But even these older and untrained individuals can move forward to the point where they can squat with a bar on their back, and deadlift weight from the floor, or press overhead. These individuals will likely not be able to perform any kind of chin-ups or dips for some time, or ever.

The other issue is in the assumptions that when I talk about strength training that I am talking about "bodybuilding" or "power lifting." I've not mentioned those terms when I talk about strength training. The fact of the matter is that the squat, the deadlift, and the press are all natural human movement patterns that every human does throughout the course of their lives. Standing up out of chairs, or off the toilet, or getting out of bed; picking the lawnmower up and putting it in the back of the truck, or picking a box of items up off the floor; lifting an object up overhead to put in a cupboard in the kitchen or on a shelf in the shop; all of these patterns are natural human movement patterns. The squat, deadlift, and press, done with a barbell in hand, allows us to train these movement patterns in an simple, efficient, and effective way. A person with a strong deadlift and a strong squat will have a stronger back, and will be less likely to miss a day of work due to a lower back injury. And if a person can keep their back strong through their 50s, 60s, and 70s retains their independence longer.

Increasing the strength in my legs, back, arms, butt, shoulders, and chest through strength training with barbells makes me stronger in TKD class.

No where have I mentioned anything about power lifting or bodybuilding, other than to say that I'm not, and have not recommended, to power lift or bodybuild.

So, at any rate, I've made my initial point twice, and tried to clarify it many times. I know you don't agree with me, and the conversation goes away from these points, changing the discussion entirely.
Yes the problem is me 100% as having zero experience in sports science.

Also noticing that...

I am the only one trying to fathom an interest in conversing on this topic.

Having nothing near the necessary experience or knowledge on this "The Two Models...

Is clearly above my comprehension and understanding; as am still not grasping the importance of this topic as yet, hence going off topic.

If I have upset the apple cart here, be sure to recognise that it has been unintentional.

I do question that if beening so sure on your opinions that why bother asking others for theirs?
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