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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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The Dunning-Kruger effect.
In a nutshell...
The less you know about something, the more you think you know about it because you haven’t seen anything past the basics.
The more you know about a subject, you realize how much more you truly don’t know about it.
Beginners typically grossly over rate their own level of competency, whereas as experts typically underrate their own level. I see it all the time in my academic students - they think they know everything there is to know about the subject, whereas I realize how superficial my own knowledge of it really is. For example, I teach Newton’s Laws of Motion. I explain it at a level they can understand and demonstrate it. They think it’s simple. In my head I can’t help but think “it’s not that simple, guys. If this was being taught in an astrophysics class at MIT, you’d think these laws were anything but simple.” |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Being able to correctly and simply summarize a concept requires a certain depth of knowledge and good depth of understanding. It is also very important to never forget that there is always more to learn and that someone else knows something more. Once this is accepted and understood, it is very easy to see both how far one has to go yet have solid confidence in how far one has come. |
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Higher Self
White Belt
Joined: 11 Mar 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Kansas
Styles: Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| This can be delicate, and probably depends largely on what type of school you run. For example, if you have a school that focuses a lot on tradition and you are trying to instill discipline, then you would need to respond accordingly. This will often be the case when teaching children. I came from a school that was much less formal. My instructor approached teaching more as a "take what you want from this training, and discard what you don't." He welcomed other points of view. Obviously, there needs to be a balance. It gets tough to teach if the peanut gallery is always chiming in. |
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Those Who Know and Those That Think They Know!! |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
You've been on the floor for quite some time, a significant amount of time, and a student/practitioner of the MA who's not been on the floor that long, and they start to voice their opinion(s) with the tone that they've been on the floor as long as you, if not longer than you.
I see this more from Kyu ranked students/practitioners, than I do from Dan ranks, even though, once in a while, once one earns a Shodan, they all of a sudden have much more knowledge and experience than you do.
How do you handle/deal it?? |
This is a very good question! I am at a very different position in this equation than you are, being that I am typically neither the most high-ranking nor the most senior member of my dojo where I train (I have trained for 18 years, but at my dojo many have trained for over 40 years). However, I encounter these kinds of self-inflated beginners often, and I say that they are all 'beginners' because if a person is trying to boost their reputation in the dojo by establishing dominance over someone as easygoing and superficially non-threatening as me, they generally are pretty bad at karate and are looking for the lowest bar they can jump  . Out of respect for those who have more experience than I do, I usually try to do more listening than talking in the dojo, and am fairly polite to everyone, since I dislike the picking-on-lower-rank thing that some people do in their clubs. Some beginners misinterpret my politeness as weakness, and as such, attempt to disregard my words when I do offer advice.
....  I actually kind of love it when this happens, because I feel like I get an excuse to let loose a little. -for the betterment of the kohai! <cough>
| sensei8 wrote: |
| After all, proof is on the floor...not in the spoken and/or written word(s)!! |
You know sensei8, this has been a theme I've always enjoyed in your posts. I couldn't agree more!
I'll cite an example of one beginners' class I taught at my college dojo to demonstrate how I deal with this kind of thing. I was conducting a fairly standard introductory class, nothing out of the ordinary. The big idea of the class was standing, moving, and using basic hand techniques while in back stance. One 3-week old white belt (about 6' muscular 19-year-old guy) chimes in "It makes literally NO sense to stand this way!"
me: "It is hard at first, but it gets easier. Keep trying!"
him: "No, I mean that you're wrong. It's so much easier if I stand like this!"
me: "That's a different stance, but it doesn't work for these techniques, so we're not going to practice that right now."
him: <hmf> ~"Maybe it just doesn't work for you."~
me: "Okay... How about you stand your way with knifehand block, and I'll stand my way, let's see who can push the other person's arm to the side. Ready?... Go!"
-he hit the floor
-he stood up, put his arm back on mine, he hit the floor
-he stood up, ... paused, then put his arm back on mine. He wobbled when I pushed, but didn't fall over.
him: "See! It works my way too!"
me: "Nope. Look at your feet."
He was standing in a very good back stance the way I was trying to teach it to him. 
_________________
"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Those Who Know and Those That Think They Know!! |
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| Shizentai wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
You've been on the floor for quite some time, a significant amount of time, and a student/practitioner of the MA who's not been on the floor that long, and they start to voice their opinion(s) with the tone that they've been on the floor as long as you, if not longer than you.
I see this more from Kyu ranked students/practitioners, than I do from Dan ranks, even though, once in a while, once one earns a Shodan, they all of a sudden have much more knowledge and experience than you do.
How do you handle/deal it?? |
This is a very good question! I am at a very different position in this equation than you are, being that I am typically neither the most high-ranking nor the most senior member of my dojo where I train (I have trained for 18 years, but at my dojo many have trained for over 40 years). However, I encounter these kinds of self-inflated beginners often, and I say that they are all 'beginners' because if a person is trying to boost their reputation in the dojo by establishing dominance over someone as easygoing and superficially non-threatening as me, they generally are pretty bad at karate and are looking for the lowest bar they can jump . Out of respect for those who have more experience than I do, I usually try to do more listening than talking in the dojo, and am fairly polite to everyone, since I dislike the picking-on-lower-rank thing that some people do in their clubs. Some beginners misinterpret my politeness as weakness, and as such, attempt to disregard my words when I do offer advice.
.... I actually kind of love it when this happens, because I feel like I get an excuse to let loose a little. -for the betterment of the kohai! <cough>
| sensei8 wrote: |
| After all, proof is on the floor...not in the spoken and/or written word(s)!! |
You know sensei8, this has been a theme I've always enjoyed in your posts. I couldn't agree more!
I'll cite an example of one beginners' class I taught at my college dojo to demonstrate how I deal with this kind of thing. I was conducting a fairly standard introductory class, nothing out of the ordinary. The big idea of the class was standing, moving, and using basic hand techniques while in back stance. One 3-week old white belt (about 6' muscular 19-year-old guy) chimes in "It makes literally NO sense to stand this way!"
me: "It is hard at first, but it gets easier. Keep trying!"
him: "No, I mean that you're wrong. It's so much easier if I stand like this!"
me: "That's a different stance, but it doesn't work for these techniques, so we're not going to practice that right now."
him: <hmf> ~"Maybe it just doesn't work for you."~
me: "Okay... How about you stand your way with knifehand block, and I'll stand my way, let's see who can push the other person's arm to the side. Ready?... Go!"
-he hit the floor
-he stood up, put his arm back on mine, he hit the floor
-he stood up, ... paused, then put his arm back on mine. He wobbled when I pushed, but didn't fall over.
him: "See! It works my way too!"
me: "Nope. Look at your feet."
He was standing in a very good back stance the way I was trying to teach it to him. |
A quite solid post!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Those Who Know and Those That Think They Know!! |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Shizentai wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
You've been on the floor for quite some time, a significant amount of time, and a student/practitioner of the MA who's not been on the floor that long, and they start to voice their opinion(s) with the tone that they've been on the floor as long as you, if not longer than you.
I see this more from Kyu ranked students/practitioners, than I do from Dan ranks, even though, once in a while, once one earns a Shodan, they all of a sudden have much more knowledge and experience than you do.
How do you handle/deal it?? |
This is a very good question! I am at a very different position in this equation than you are, being that I am typically neither the most high-ranking nor the most senior member of my dojo where I train (I have trained for 18 years, but at my dojo many have trained for over 40 years). However, I encounter these kinds of self-inflated beginners often, and I say that they are all 'beginners' because if a person is trying to boost their reputation in the dojo by establishing dominance over someone as easygoing and superficially non-threatening as me, they generally are pretty bad at karate and are looking for the lowest bar they can jump . Out of respect for those who have more experience than I do, I usually try to do more listening than talking in the dojo, and am fairly polite to everyone, since I dislike the picking-on-lower-rank thing that some people do in their clubs. Some beginners misinterpret my politeness as weakness, and as such, attempt to disregard my words when I do offer advice.
.... I actually kind of love it when this happens, because I feel like I get an excuse to let loose a little. -for the betterment of the kohai! <cough>
| sensei8 wrote: |
| After all, proof is on the floor...not in the spoken and/or written word(s)!! |
You know sensei8, this has been a theme I've always enjoyed in your posts. I couldn't agree more!
I'll cite an example of one beginners' class I taught at my college dojo to demonstrate how I deal with this kind of thing. I was conducting a fairly standard introductory class, nothing out of the ordinary. The big idea of the class was standing, moving, and using basic hand techniques while in back stance. One 3-week old white belt (about 6' muscular 19-year-old guy) chimes in "It makes literally NO sense to stand this way!"
me: "It is hard at first, but it gets easier. Keep trying!"
him: "No, I mean that you're wrong. It's so much easier if I stand like this!"
me: "That's a different stance, but it doesn't work for these techniques, so we're not going to practice that right now."
him: <hmf> ~"Maybe it just doesn't work for you."~
me: "Okay... How about you stand your way with knifehand block, and I'll stand my way, let's see who can push the other person's arm to the side. Ready?... Go!"
-he hit the floor
-he stood up, put his arm back on mine, he hit the floor
-he stood up, ... paused, then put his arm back on mine. He wobbled when I pushed, but didn't fall over.
him: "See! It works my way too!"
me: "Nope. Look at your feet."
He was standing in a very good back stance the way I was trying to teach it to him. |
A quite solid post!!
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And from the description, a solid stance! 
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Those Who Know and Those That Think They Know!! |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| Shizentai wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
You've been on the floor for quite some time, a significant amount of time, and a student/practitioner of the MA who's not been on the floor that long, and they start to voice their opinion(s) with the tone that they've been on the floor as long as you, if not longer than you.
I see this more from Kyu ranked students/practitioners, than I do from Dan ranks, even though, once in a while, once one earns a Shodan, they all of a sudden have much more knowledge and experience than you do.
How do you handle/deal it?? |
This is a very good question! I am at a very different position in this equation than you are, being that I am typically neither the most high-ranking nor the most senior member of my dojo where I train (I have trained for 18 years, but at my dojo many have trained for over 40 years). However, I encounter these kinds of self-inflated beginners often, and I say that they are all 'beginners' because if a person is trying to boost their reputation in the dojo by establishing dominance over someone as easygoing and superficially non-threatening as me, they generally are pretty bad at karate and are looking for the lowest bar they can jump . Out of respect for those who have more experience than I do, I usually try to do more listening than talking in the dojo, and am fairly polite to everyone, since I dislike the picking-on-lower-rank thing that some people do in their clubs. Some beginners misinterpret my politeness as weakness, and as such, attempt to disregard my words when I do offer advice.
.... I actually kind of love it when this happens, because I feel like I get an excuse to let loose a little. -for the betterment of the kohai! <cough>
| sensei8 wrote: |
| After all, proof is on the floor...not in the spoken and/or written word(s)!! |
You know sensei8, this has been a theme I've always enjoyed in your posts. I couldn't agree more!
I'll cite an example of one beginners' class I taught at my college dojo to demonstrate how I deal with this kind of thing. I was conducting a fairly standard introductory class, nothing out of the ordinary. The big idea of the class was standing, moving, and using basic hand techniques while in back stance. One 3-week old white belt (about 6' muscular 19-year-old guy) chimes in "It makes literally NO sense to stand this way!"
me: "It is hard at first, but it gets easier. Keep trying!"
him: "No, I mean that you're wrong. It's so much easier if I stand like this!"
me: "That's a different stance, but it doesn't work for these techniques, so we're not going to practice that right now."
him: <hmf> ~"Maybe it just doesn't work for you."~
me: "Okay... How about you stand your way with knifehand block, and I'll stand my way, let's see who can push the other person's arm to the side. Ready?... Go!"
-he hit the floor
-he stood up, put his arm back on mine, he hit the floor
-he stood up, ... paused, then put his arm back on mine. He wobbled when I pushed, but didn't fall over.
him: "See! It works my way too!"
me: "Nope. Look at your feet."
He was standing in a very good back stance the way I was trying to teach it to him. |
A quite solid post!!
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And from the description, a solid stance! |
Excellent teaching!
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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on the post.
