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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Does tegumi contain grappling on the ground between the two participants, or is it more of standing grappling involving joint manipulation? |
The modern sport of Tegumi, as far as I know, does not. It is much closer to it's Japanese cousin Sumo. Pre-War Tegumi did continue on the ground, and involved pinning and submission techniques, not unlike Indian Pehlwani. Regarding Tegumi and Karate practice, this particular aspect varies from Dojo to Dojo.
I did not receive much direct Tegumi instruction, with what I did learn being through kata application in the form of Kiso Kumite. Most of my grappling knowledge is derived from Amateur Wrestling, Judo, Gracie Combatives, and Shoot-Fighting. However, I have been able to use that knowledge, and resources such as the work of Patrick McCarthy to develop a comprehensive approach to Tegumi for my students.
I consider it an integral knowledge base to have, otherwise it is incredibly difficult to discern realistic applications from the kata. I believe a lot of kata applications would be vastly improved if those doing them had an actual grasp of going strength to strength against a resisting opponent.
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R. Keith Williams |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Thanks for the explanation, and the further replies here. Does tegumi contain grappling on the ground between the two participants, or is it more of standing grappling involving joint manipulation? |
Yes, and then some!! Kind of like when Kenneth and Kendall are wrestling each other at home, just being boys...that's Tegumi in a nutshell.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Thanks for the explanation, and the further replies here. Does tegumi contain grappling on the ground between the two participants, or is it more of standing grappling involving joint manipulation? |
Yes, and then some!! Kind of like when Kenneth and Kendall are wrestling each other at home, just being boys...that's Tegumi in a nutshell.
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Thankfully, we keep that to a minimum at home! 
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Thanks for the explanation, and the further replies here. Does tegumi contain grappling on the ground between the two participants, or is it more of standing grappling involving joint manipulation? |
Yes, and then some!! Kind of like when Kenneth and Kendall are wrestling each other at home, just being boys...that's Tegumi in a nutshell.
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Thankfully, we keep that to a minimum at home! |
But, not at a wrestling competition; release the beast!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wado Heretic wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Does tegumi contain grappling on the ground between the two participants, or is it more of standing grappling involving joint manipulation? |
The modern sport of Tegumi, as far as I know, does not. It is much closer to it's Japanese cousin Sumo. Pre-War Tegumi did continue on the ground, and involved pinning and submission techniques, not unlike Indian Pehlwani. Regarding Tegumi and Karate practice, this particular aspect varies from Dojo to Dojo. |
To the bold; The ground fighting aspect comes from Gao Quan and Dishu Quan which are essentially the the same art. However the objective in Muto is not to pin and submit the opponent but to create time and distance to afford you time to get back to your feet. This is done by means of creating distance by kicks to force the opponent to maintain their distance, by means of damage due to kicking the limbs thus giving an opportunity to get back to your feet, by means of sweeping or taking down the opponent thus giving you an opportunity to return to your feet.
The common misconception is that Tegumi had/has a component of ground fighting like Jujutsu whereas the practitioner pulls or takes the opponent down to the ground to pin or submit. This is not the intent or goal of this component. The goal is always to return to your feet which is where you engage the opponent. There is no (at least I have never been taught) a submissive/pinning side of the ground fighting component of Muto (Tegumi). Often times this is from another art being passed off as Muto.
Having said that the throws, takedowns, sweeps and off balancing techniques are both similar and also very different from modern wrestling, Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc. The intent is definitely different as it's not meant to win points but to damage the opponent. The throws are performed to slam or up end an opponent so as to drop them on there head vs. throwing them to their backs.
| Wado Heretic wrote: |
I did not receive much direct Tegumi instruction, with what I did learn being through kata application in the form of Kiso Kumite. Most of my grappling knowledge is derived from Amateur Wrestling, Judo, Gracie Combatives, and Shoot-Fighting. However, I have been able to use that knowledge, and resources such as the work of Patrick McCarthy to develop a comprehensive approach to Tegumi for my students.
I consider it an integral knowledge base to have, otherwise it is incredibly difficult to discern realistic applications from the kata. I believe a lot of kata applications would be vastly improved if those doing them had an actual grasp of going strength to strength against a resisting opponent. |
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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