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scohen0300
Blue Belt
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:20 pm Post subject: Thoughts on tegumi? |
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How do you practice it, if at all, at your dojo? Do they relate to the kata? Any drills that you’re particularly fond of that you’d like to share?
I love it! Especially drilling, working on muscle memory, getting that live feel instead of just practicing a self defense move that your Uke is letting you do.
Thanks for sharing 
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Instagram: @srkdi_pgh
Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on tegumi? |
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| scohen0300 wrote: |
How do you practice it, if at all, at your dojo? Do they relate to the kata? Any drills that you’re particularly fond of that you’d like to share?
I love it! Especially drilling, working on muscle memory, getting that live feel instead of just practicing a self defense move that your Uke is letting you do.
Thanks for sharing |
Yes. Yes and Yes!
We practice it via the applications of the Kata and also in two person drills.
One simple example is in Pinan Shodan. The sequence of diagonal left step to lower block (step 1) to upper block (step 2) to diagonal right lower block (step 3) to upper block (step 4).
The application that we practice is taking Step 2 and 3 and putting them together in a sequence. First off we have no blocks, so you step outside of your opponents block and brush/seize their weapon with the Kosa/Hikite hand and step forward and utilize the Jodan Uke and strike to the base of the skull (you may not have seen this or have practiced this but in most old school arts it can still be found, instead of rising up and forward it raaises up in an arch and snaps back like a reverse Uraken or back hand strike which you can use the knuckles or another version where you use the first knuckle of the thumb) and then lower that hand and stick the thumb into the collar, step out diagonally to the right and execute a gedan Uke which is actually the take down. If you step forward a bit with the left foot you trap the opponents leg at the side of the knee and you can potentially tear the tendons. So if you're working with a Uke skip this step and just turn so they go down without the damage.
There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of Muto contained within the Kata. The aforementioned is just one simple example.
If you get the chance (can not remember the books title) look up Gichin Funakoshi's book. It contains I believe what is now referred to as the "lost throws", LOL. It's been a decade or more since I last read this book so you'll have to do a bit of research to find the right book but I believe it's something along the lines of Karate Jutsu. Some one on here will know the title.
However I would recommend researching Jiao Li as well. Since many of our Muto (Tegumi) applications come from this art you will find many throws, take downs, sweeps and off balancing techniques. It doesn't take much to see techniques that translate to these applications within the Kata.
You will also find that the throws in particular are very similar to what is found in Judo, Jujutsu and most grappling arts. The difference is it's older than those arts thus the sometimes mistaken notion that you have injected Judo into the art for throws.
Don't get me wrong there a lot of instructors that do use Judo throws. Although they are similar they are not the same and the execution is slightly different as well.
Just a little personal advice... don't just practice Muto and Atemi. You should be utilizing this along with Tuidi, Chi'gwa, Chibudi and all of the elements of the art.
All to often practitioners only concentrate on one or two elements of the art, or their do not know the other elements, and miss the connection that all of these play as a combat effective method.
Everyone knows the atemi (striking) element and many know the Muto (grappling) element but forget to include the other elements into their training. Nothing wrong with that but it is incomplete.
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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scohen0300
Blue Belt
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Not being a Karate guy, could someone please define Tegumi for me? |
Tegumi is an old version of Okinawan grappling. However, over the years it seems to have developed more into two person drills that can help build muscle memory for techniques. Also a great workout! I guess this is depending on who you ask, it might be different depending on style/dojo.
If anyone would like to add anything I left out, please do so!
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Instagram: @srkdi_pgh
Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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In tang soo do we have il soo sik, or one step sparring which sounds like the same think. A predefined attack cones in, we give it a predefined response. That could be a punch to the face being countered with a trap and takedown type response, or it could be an escape and counter from various restraints, or defense and disarm from knife attacks ( the knife being made of rubber to save on paperwork).
Would that be what the karate guys call tegumi? |
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574
Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
In tang soo do we have il soo sik, or one step sparring which sounds like the same think. A predefined attack cones in, we give it a predefined response. That could be a punch to the face being countered with a trap and takedown type response, or it could be an escape and counter from various restraints, or defense and disarm from knife attacks ( the knife being made of rubber to save on paperwork).
Would that be what the karate guys call tegumi? |
Not really. What you are describing, most karate styles would refer to as Ippon Kumite (One step sparing).
Tegumi is a catch all term for a style of wrestling that has taken place in Okinawa for many years before the advent of Japanese Karate.
Interesting to note though that 'Te-gumi'(手組) and 'Kumi-te' (組手) mean the same thing (exchanging/grappling hands) - they are just transposed.
K.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Tegumi, as in the grappling component of karate, is definitely a part of our training. Tegumi, as in the formalized drills created by Patrick McCarthy Sensei for his Koryu Uchinadi program, are not part of our training.
As for how it is practiced, obviously we have many techniques that are tegumi/muto methods, and we have a number of drills associated with them. It really comes alive when we start doing kakedameshi or kata randori, however, since you get to work with a resisting partner in a free-form manner.
@ OneKickWonder - those would generally be called ippon kumite drills, or yakusoku kumite drills, and may or may not contain tegumi.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I try to imagine Shindokan without Tegumi, but, I just can't. Our core surrounds close range techniques from Tuite to Tegumi, and everything else in between. From a students first day, they are immersed into the world of close range techniques, and oftentimes, the new student realizes that they've bitten off more than they wanted. That realization comes from the plethora of drills, and within those drills, comes the resistance training. Put that all on the new students shoulders, they walk out wide eyed...but they come back wondering what will they learn today...tomorrow!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!!
Last edited by sensei8 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Not being a Karate guy, could someone please define Tegumi for me? |
Tegumi is grappling, clinching, throws, takedowns, sweeps and off balancing techniques to reduce it down to a simple answer.
In a deeper meaning it is combined with aspects of Tuidi, Chi'gwa, Chibudi, and Atemi (percussive impact), and Ti'gwa as a complete art.
Like others have stated it is practiced in two person drill as stand alone techniques like Judo is practiced. It is also practiced in the form of Kata applications where it is the singular or part of a flow of other elements of the art to achieve the desired effect, to end the fight.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
