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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| OneAndOnly wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I think you probably would be taught it.... Maybe you haven't overtly been introduced to it yet but GM Park has always been ITF-style. My instructor trained with GM Park Jong Soo a number of years ago and he did it then. I think he was also Technical Director for the ITF for some time (?) though I think he's independent now. |
yeah we do sine wave when we do our punches. But while doing my forms, neither the black belts or GM Park have corrected me and told me to make sure to do it. |
Why do you think that it is?? Could it be that they don't believe in ithe sine wave for one reason or another??
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, onward and upward, to 7th gup, or 7th grade, or however it may fall in your respective dojang....
Songham 3, ATA yellow belt form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4oJx9DbmN0&list=PL6C5091F842375D2F&index=1
28 moves. You can see knife hand blocks added in here, with the low and the high, as well as a double knife hand block (or "guarding block"). There is also some different footwork, with the step back to perform the front kick, then followed by a round kick. So with the ATA, in the third form, we see a kicking combination introduced.
I know DWx alluded to this:
| DWx wrote: |
| Maybe you could have introduced a front kick but I probably wouldn't have included a high kick like is seen in Songham 1. That is a little too much I think for people you are just introducing to balance and using their feet for things other than walking and running. But then again I'm a stickler for being technically correct right from the start. |
I would just note that as part of the basics that are taught in orientation, and done in almost all of our classes, regardless of rank, we do the same jump front snap kick shown in Songham 3 here. I'd say its the most basic jumping kick out there, and a good training tool that leads to training other jumping kicks.
Bo Chung Hyung, TTA hi orange belt form: there is no clip for this one, so I will try to spell it out here as best I can:
Edit: here's my clip of this form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHMpvCAkabA&list=PL82A89568D2E49FDC&index=7
Ready position (standard):
1. Turn to left, down block left in front stance
2. Remain in left front stance, retract hip slightly and execute right reverse punch
3. Slide left to right to face front, while chambering for right down block, step right foot out to the right, right front stance, right down block
4. Remain in right front stance, retract hip slightly and execute left reverse punch
5. Slide right foot to left to face front, step left foot forward to left front stance, left down block
6. Step forward with right leg to right front stance, right punch
7. Step forward with left leg to left front stance, left punch
8. Step forward with right leg to right front stance, right punch, kihap
9. Turn 270 degrees to the right with the left foot into left back stance, left middle block
10. Right back leg front kick...
11. Land in right front stance, right punch
12. Turn 180 degrees to the right with right foot to right back stance, right middle block
13. Left back leg front kick...
14. Land in left front stance, left punch
15. Turn 90 degrees to the left, stepping with the left foot to left front stance, left down block (you are heading back to starting position now)
16. Step forward with right leg to right front stance, right punch
17. Step forward with left leg to left front stance, left punch
18. Step forward with right leg to right front stance, right punch, kihap
19. Turn 270 degrees to the right with the left foot, land in left front stance, left down block
20. Remain in left front stance, retract hip slightly, right reverse punch
21. Slide left foot to right to face front, step to the right with the right foot into right front stance, right down block
22. Remain in right front stance, retract hip slightly, left reverse punch.
Return to ready position.
*All punches in this form are to the mid-section.
So, 22 moves, a form by all accounts made by our GM as an "extra form" (translation of Bo Chung) to help learn to use the hips in striking. And now with the third form in the TTA, we add a kick, the front kick. Footwork stays pretty basic, with the 270 degree turns adding a degree of challenge.
Palgwe 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OUNRlnsqW0
Looks like we have 22 moves here, too, with lots of blocking techniques (or are they really strikes..!!!) What I will note that I see here is stepping backwards, which I don't see a lot of in the other forms sets, at least not this early on.
Tae Guek 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaGuL3BgKh8
Looks like 34 moves. I see lots of combinations in here, mixing in kicks and double punches, short stances moving to longer stances for power. I particularly like the move of the knife hand block in back stance and transition to punching in the front stance. I teach students who will be breaking boards with techniques like reverse punch or elbow strike to use this method to get their hips and body into the technique for power. Very useful here.
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Last edited by bushido_man96 on Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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truejim
Yellow Belt
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Posts: 32
Location: Virginia
Styles: Kukkiwon/WTF
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: TKD Forms; a running comparison |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I am familiar with two different form sets of TKD; the ATA, where I attained a 2nd degree rank, and my current TTA, which uses the Chang On system of forms, or part of it, anyways. But I have had just a dabbling of experience with the WTF set of forms, and my dad years ago did TKD with the old Pal Gwe forms. So what I thought I would do was throw some links in here of the different forms sets, by the rank I know them as, and do a bit of comparing and see if we can generate discussion. |
FYI, for a comparison of taekwondo forms, see also http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Taekwondo_Forms |
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OneAndOnly
White Belt
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Toronto
Styles: Shotokan Karate
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Why do you think that it is?? Could it be that they don't believe in ithe sine wave for one reason or another??
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truthfully i have no idea. I'll have to ask someone next time i'm in the dojang. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| OneAndOnly wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Why do you think that it is?? Could it be that they don't believe in ithe sine wave for one reason or another??
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truthfully i have no idea. I'll have to ask someone next time i'm in the dojang. |
Ok! I'd be curious to their answer(s).
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| OneAndOnly wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Why do you think that it is?? Could it be that they don't believe in ithe sine wave for one reason or another??
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truthfully i have no idea. I'll have to ask someone next time i'm in the dojang. |
Ok! I'd be curious to their answer(s).
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In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.
I came from a school that didn't appreciate sine wave, but we brought in an expert close to Gen. Choi to teach us. However, my instructor had little patience and thought it was laughable and a huge waste of his time. It was not taken seriously at our school.
Here's an article by the UK's Stuart Anslow on sine wave that may be helpful.
http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html
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Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for sharing this article, Iceman. I've read lots of Stuart's articles and books, and he really helps send the points home over the application and use of TKD technique.
After watching his videos, I still see differences between how his technique looks, and how I've learned technique over the years. In my experience, I've never done any of the rising and falling when doing technique, nor really any of the lifting of the heel prior to performing a stationary technique.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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6th gup/grade forms....
ATA Songham 4, camouflage belt (yes, camo belt) form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMi83SPAP1Q
We see 31 moves, along the rectangle diagram on the floor. For those not familiar with ATA forms and philosophy, all the forms fall somewhere along the diagram of the Songham Star: http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Songahm-Star.jpg
Being the fourth colored belt form in the ATA, you can start to see an increase in the number of kicks and kicking combinations in the forms. A reverse side kick is added, and can be seen as part of a combination, along with a second kick combination, utilizing a jump front kick, and followed by a front kick. The form has 10 kicks total. The single back leg side kick can also be a challenging kick to do. You can also see another double block with both inner forearms done from two stances, back and middle (or sitting, if you prefer). Sparring stance is also introduced. Not many new single hand techniques are introduced, but you can see them being used in combination in this form.
TTA Do San hyung, low green belt form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaGCx8yKpI
This video is more like the way we do them in our school, with some differences in hand position for chambering and what-not. 24 moves, with some of the form veering off on angles before coming back in line. It starts with a very strong block/strike sequence that we see switch to the other side, before moving into a spear hand strike with the off hand reinforcing underneath the elbow. Following that, we have the strange spinning into the back fist technique. So we see some advancing footwork that requires the student to pay attention to detail when performing this section of the form. We see the wedging blocks, followed by a front kick and finishing with strong punching combinations, and one can see the applications with this segment pretty easily, I think. I really enjoy doing this form, because I feel that the movements are kept pretty short and compact, and I feel I generate a lot of power in this form. But still, its the fourth form in our curriculum, with only two kicking techniques in a style renowned for its kicking.
GTF Pattern Jee Sang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb73jT0ZNmc&index=6&list=PL84448E11341F71D7
24 movements here, mostly with lots of blocking, and it kind takes the 4-direction approach of Chon Ji, with the + pattern. The first part of the form does knife hand down blocks, and closed fist middle inner forearm blocks, and then it switches, going to closed fist down blocks, and middle knife hand blocks. We also see a rising front kick, like a stretch kick, in this form, followed by a side kick, and then a front snap kick while retreating, followed shortly by a side kick while retreating. So we get some interesting concepts in this new form, and more kicking techniques than in Do San.
Palgwe 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdNiGNczQ2A
26 moves. We see at the beginning a very similar sequence to the beginning of Won Hyo hyung, which will be next up in our review here. It also shares similarities with a Karate kata, but I don't know the name. I'm sure one of our Karate guys can help me out here, though, and we can throw up a link to compare them, as well. Following that segment, we see a similar segment to that in Do San with the spear hand strike, followed by a turn and a hammer fist strike. In TKD fashion, though, a front kick is added into the beginning of the segment. The form pretty much repeats itself, as well. I find this form very interesting, especially as it looks like a hybrid combination of Do San and Won Hyo. Again, we see only 2 kicks.
Taeguek 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q66i338xIpA
29 moves. We see some consistency between these three older forms, with the spear hand strike and reinforced elbow. This form also adds the two-arm movement of knife hand high block and upset knife hand strike. In the TTA, we don't see this until brown belt with Choong Moo hyung. This form also adds a kicking combination using a back leg front kick followed by a punch, and then two back leg side kicks (which I think is technically difficult). This form has 6 kicks total. It also presents an interesting block/kick/block segment with a back leg front kick, landing back behind where it started, followed by an inside block (or could this be a strike?!). This form has some interesting turns at this point, as well, where the body turns one direction, and then the inside block comes from the other, which appears weird to me. We also see a dramatic decrease in the number of walking stances, and more use of the front stance instead.
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www.haysgym.com
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www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Last edited by bushido_man96 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| IcemanSK wrote: |
In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully. |
You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.
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on the post.
