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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: TKD Forms; a running comparison Reply with quote

I am familiar with two different form sets of TKD; the ATA, where I attained a 2nd degree rank, and my current TTA, which uses the Chang On system of forms, or part of it, anyways. But I have had just a dabbling of experience with the WTF set of forms, and my dad years ago did TKD with the old Pal Gwe forms. So what I thought I would do was throw some links in here of the different forms sets, by the rank I know them as, and do a bit of comparing and see if we can generate discussion.

So, lets begin at white belt:

ATA Songham 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOoAQxFsdlE

18 moves, but in a straight line. Also includes two kicking techniques.

TTA/ITF Chon Ji: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pXfgBadTvI

19 moves, in a + pattern. No kicks.

I like the development of the blocking and turning in Chon Ji, but don't care for the lack of kicks. The ATA form introduces two kicks into their first form. ATA lacks sine wave, and although I do Chon Ji now, I don't use sine wave.

Pal Gwe 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pXfgBadTvI

20 moves, with lots of inside to outside blocks, which is a block I don't see a lot of. They also have an upset knife hand strike, which isn't seen until higher forms in the other two form sets.

Tae Guek 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvf8WWXFDA4

20 moves, lots of "walking" stances, but with some kicks and turns.
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Last edited by bushido_man96 on Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Harkon72
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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
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Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it's me but I find watching TKD forms very strange. In the first clip, the player turns his centre line away while doing the outside forearm block; so it makes sense that his focus cannot be in the direction of the block. The other two clips also leave me puzzled. I noticed that the player bounces in his stance before he executes the techniques, maybe for power but he may also telegraph each one to his opponent. I must admit, Korean martial arts are quite rare here in Wales, but after watch these clips I'm not too impressed.
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sensei8
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dreaded sine wave! Does TKD sparring utilize the sine wave?? If not, then why do sine wave in forms?!

Still, I love your OP, Brian!! Thanks for sharing!!



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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
I know it's me but I find watching TKD forms very strange. In the first clip, the player turns his centre line away while doing the outside forearm block; so it makes sense that his focus cannot be in the direction of the block.


Not sure what you mean here. He should be looking the way he is blocking. Its what I did in the past.

Quote:
The other two clips also leave me puzzled. I noticed that the player bounces in his stance before he executes the techniques, maybe for power but he may also telegraph each one to his opponent. I must admit, Korean martial arts are quite rare here in Wales, but after watch these clips I'm not too impressed.


The second clip is Chon Ji done with sine wave. That is a hallmark of the ITF way of doing the forms, and some out there are more exaggerated than that. In our style, we don't do the sine wave. Here is a better example of how we do it in our school: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubH6o3FK04M We do it with a bit more quickness, though, and focus on power through the hips.

What are your concerns with the Pal Gwe form?
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Harkon72
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Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I mean is that the guy is opening his chest and turning his centerline away from the direction of his block, thus doing, his hips are turning in the opposite direction to the way the power of the block should go. It makes no sense. The second guy not only bounces in his stance, he does a little bounce with his arms before each technique, I can't see why he does this.
I'll show you a similar form from Okinawan Karate;

This is Pinan Nidan, a basic kata from Shito Ryu, Shukokai Germany;

http://youtu.be/y6DfTyJ5wiM

It seems they are a world apart.
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hammer
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
What are your concerns with the Pal Gwe form?

It looks a lot like Chon Ji...
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DWx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: TKD Forms; a running comparison Reply with quote

Great topic idea Brian

So I am only really familiar with the Chang Hon / ITF set, though I have seen the other forms in the past. Rather than comment on how the moves are performed, I'll stick with the content:

bushido_man96 wrote:
I like the development of the blocking and turning in Chon Ji, but don't care for the lack of kicks. The ATA form introduces two kicks into their first form. ATA lacks sine wave, and although I do Chon Ji now, I don't use sine wave.

I like Chon Ji being about as simple as you can get. For beginners with sub-6 month training I think it's a nice basis for learning forms as you can take away 2 stances, 2 blocks and 1 attack from it. Maybe you could have introduced a front kick but I probably wouldn't have included a high kick like is seen in Songham 1. That is a little too much I think for people you are just introducing to balance and using their feet for things other than walking and running. But then again I'm a stickler for being technically correct right from the start.

Pal Gwe1 I feel is quite similar to Chon Ji... though maybe a halfway house between it and the next pattern Dan Gun. As a beginner form I quite like it and I think the mechanics taught (inward block and inward knifehand) are reasonably simple and similar that they would be easy to pick up.

Both are very similar to Taikyoku Shodan/Nidan/Sandan and Heian Shodan. Not surprising since Taekwondo has a very strong grounding in Shotokan and other styles of Karate.

Songham 1 seems to be more complicated to me and not necessarily what I would offer to a beginner straight off. Side kicks in particular are awkward movements that aren't really natural to pick up and I think teaching this kick to a beginner plus teaching them a high front kick when they most likely are just developing their flexibility isn't a priority. FWIW in ITF, side kicks don't appear until green belt / 6th kup. It also contains a greater variety of stances, attacks and defenses than the other two.

Interestingly though, all 3 follow the cross-shaped (+) diagram on the floor and go up-down and across the room rather than splitting off on different angles and following more complicated footwork.
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Harkon72
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Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard claims that Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do have roots in Shotokan Karate. But as Shotokan was not founded until 1939, these styles must have developed very quickly. From what I can see, the root is common, but the tree has grown into some thing very different. The pattern of the forms might be similar, but the execution is remarkably divorced from the original. My first Sensei was taught Shorin Ryu or as he called it Shorinji Ryu. This was derived from Shuri Te, and before that, Naha Te. Shotokan came from a mix of Shuri Te and the teachings of the founder of Naha Te. It is considered a young style, so the Korean schools are even younger. This is an example of Shotokan, you can see how different it is;

http://youtu.be/p6pEyTYhuBg

Enjoy.
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OneAndOnly
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Styles: Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a yellow stripe in ITF, and i'm currently working on learning Chon Ji and Dan Gun. I haven't been told to do the forms with sine wave. My grandmaster is Jong Soo Park, student of General Choi if that helps.

anyways, yeah good stuff
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
What I mean is that the guy is opening his chest and turning his centerline away from the direction of his block, thus doing, his hips are turning in the opposite direction to the way the power of the block should go. It makes no sense. The second guy not only bounces in his stance, he does a little bounce with his arms before each technique, I can't see why he does this.
I'll show you a similar form from Okinawan Karate;

This is Pinan Nidan, a basic kata from Shito Ryu, Shukokai Germany;

http://youtu.be/y6DfTyJ5wiM

It seems they are a world apart.


You are right, they are worlds apart. Mainly, because TKD has evolved away from its Japanese roots to try to create its own identity.

If you are looking for an application to the series in Songham 1, starting with the inner forearm block, its a side-on block that comes from the turn, because the attack would come from behind. Then, the side kick and knife hand strike finish. If you want to follow that line of thinking, that is. You also have to keep in mind that ATA forms weren't designed with any kind of hae sul or bunkai in mind. They were designed to allow the student to practice the moves that fall into the curriculum of the belt rank. That is one thing that the ATA did well in designing their forms; they made each form a bit more complex than the next, and you can see the advancement in technique development.

Chon Ji, the way it is shown, has all the bounce movement because of the sine wave. They also changed the way some hand movements are chambered and delivered. However, I don't use sine wave, and most of my hand movements are done more like Karate hand movements, although some will differ.

Harkon72 wrote:
I have heard claims that Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do have roots in Shotokan Karate. But as Shotokan was not founded until 1939, these styles must have developed very quickly. From what I can see, the root is common, but the tree has grown into some thing very different. The pattern of the forms might be similar, but the execution is remarkably divorced from the original. My first Sensei was taught Shorin Ryu or as he called it Shorinji Ryu. This was derived from Shuri Te, and before that, Naha Te. Shotokan came from a mix of Shuri Te and the teachings of the founder of Naha Te. It is considered a young style, so the Korean schools are even younger. This is an example of Shotokan, you can see how different it is;

http://youtu.be/p6pEyTYhuBg

Enjoy.


You are rights, TKD and TSD are very young styles. Most of the older Korean GMs that ended up starting these young Korean arts had come up through Shotokan or some other form of Karate in the Japanese universities that they attended during the Japanese occupation of Korea. They also wanted to re-create a national identity after the occupation, so their style of Karate began to change. So yes, there are differences in some of the moves.

This was a very nice form, Kanku Dai. But I don't think it is a white belt level form.
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Last edited by bushido_man96 on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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