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datguy
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 91

Styles: Taekwondo, Judo, and Kickboxing.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: TKD Rant Reply with quote

Hi. Just had a few thoughts on my mind and I thought I'd share and see what comments or debate I could get on the topic.
Okay, so if you go to any you tube video where a TKD fighter is fighting a martial artist from a different style, you always see negative comments towards TKD. Doesn't matter if the TKD fighter wins or loses there are always people bashing TKD.
Often the comments are about how TKD is all flashy, inneffictive, and more of a dance than a fighting style. Now I realize that tkd has it's fair share of "flashy" moves but did it ever occur to anybody that these kicks aren't for combat but rather for show, to create balance, and control?
WTF Olympic sparring does lack power but after all it is a point based fight. Sport tkd is very different than "combat" tkd. The tkd I learn is just as much punches and elbows as it is kicks.

Well, that was my rant on tkd downers. Feel free to comment, disagree, and share opinions!
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JusticeZero
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, most of the TKD out there where people see it is all those things. A lot of arts with a bad reputation have almost gone out of their way to earn their rep.
It used to be that if it wasn't boxing, it was suspect. Now if it's not MMA, it's suspect. You won't see respect given to anything that isn't the weapon of choice in the local gladiatorial arenas of the day regardless, as a rule.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6155
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its because it an easy target. And like Justice said, we have kinda earned that rep from the vast number of schools that focus on the flashy and ineffective. I think part of the problem too is some of the kicks which are labelled as flashy, such as a spinning hook kick, are used quite a bit in our sparring and can be really effective, just other styles dismiss them because they take longer to become proficient at and when they go wrong, you can end up flat on your back. But get hit by one at full force and you'll be seeing stars.

Its not like TKD people are innocent themselves though. Tons of Kukki/WTF vs ITF vs others comments; style bashing within the same style.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't worry about it too much. There isn't much point trying to change the minds of those who won't listen to you as it is.

The main thing a TKD stylist can do is focus on his/her training, and being honest to oneself about what you are doing, and what your goals are. Those who train practically and effectively will be seen that way, and those who choose to go other routes, will probably continue to receive this kind of rhetoric.
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datguy
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Joined: 29 May 2011
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Styles: Taekwondo, Judo, and Kickboxing.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't worry about it too much either but it's still a little frustrating. Also about the spinning hook kick, those aren't anything to joke with I caught one right in the solar plexus... not too fun!
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hammer
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Styles: Kyokushin, TKD

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't run into negative comments but my main response to any would be an invitation to observe a workout at the club I go to...
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datguy
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Joined: 29 May 2011
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Styles: Taekwondo, Judo, and Kickboxing.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good response...it sure is hard work. Takes a strong heart to do tkd. Definitely need cardiovascular fitness.
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“Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
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boyo1991
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Joined: 06 Apr 2007
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Styles: judo, tkd, boxing

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

datguy wrote:
Good response...it sure is hard work. Takes a strong heart to do tkd. Definitely need cardiovascular fitness.


unless in your in ATA jk jk

i believe that the reason that TKD gets such a bad wrap is focused on several things... the sensei of other arts, teaching their students that it is bad, the look of olympic TKD just makes it look terribly innefective, and schools like ATA.

the sensei of other arts see tkd as another art that can put them out of buisness... not necessarily jelously but just the thought that their art is better and have a biased are just showing their students how innefective it can be (if u do PERFECTLY to do say a take down).

When you look at olympic TKD u see them constantly kicking and not really dealing damage by the look. so.. in turn like its been said "if its not mma and dealing damage... dont want none of that"

Lastly, look at ATA. KILLING the name of the art. mcdojo to the max just want money dont care about where the students actually at. making the students therefor, aweful. tbh lol.
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Montana
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Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question is basically, "Why does TKD get bashed so often as being ineffective?"

There are a variety of reasons TKD gets bashed all of the time.

Namely:
1. Black belts as young as 6 years old (I've seen them). To other tradition martial artists, this is a joke! It makes no difference if you label them as "Junior Black Belts...as black belt is a black belt.
2. Emphasis on high, flashy kicks which if they connect, are great, if not, they leave the TKD practioner HIGHLY vulnerable and off balance.
3. Emphasis on kicks, little on hand techniques
4. Literally no grappling techsniques.
5. No defenses against weapons, or weapon usage taught.
6. Break a board, get a belt testing mentality. Commercial schools especially are typically geared towards easy belt tests to retain students. (this is where the term McDojo origionated I believe)

There are probably others, and of course, there are always exceptions. There are hybrid TKDschools that teach grappling and weapons training, but those aren't "pure" TKD.

In my 25+ years as an open, all styles judge and referee, typically the TKD fighter will 90% of the time lose their matches because they don't kbnow how to use their hands, protect their groin or block punches.

I've also had the opportunity to watch and talk to instructors from many TKD schools (various organizations) in California, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Colorado, Minnesota, Michigan and one in the UK, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with what I'm seeing taught and practiced in TKD schools.

Now, if the mods want to delete this post, they most certainly have that right, but I did answer the question that was posted from my own observations and experiences.
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DWx
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6155
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Black belts as young as 6 years old (I've seen them). To other tradition martial artists, this is a joke! It makes no difference if you label them as "Junior Black Belts...as black belt is a black belt.

Yeah this does happen, but only in McDojo TKD. And it does happen in other styles too. I remember reading an article once about a 3rd dan in Karate who was like 10 years old. Its obvious its not a real Karate school, just a McDojo.

Quote:
2. Emphasis on high, flashy kicks which if they connect, are great, if not, they leave the TKD practioner HIGHLY vulnerable and off balance.
3. Emphasis on kicks, little on hand techniques

True for some styles, but if you look at the slightly less popular ITF style, I'd say its about 60/40 kicks/hands and less so on the flashy kicks. Legs are longer and kicks can generate much more force so we use them at long range and then hands come into play once the distance is closed.

With the flashy kick stuff, I think you do need to know a little of the history and circumstances in which TKD evolved. In short there are really two reasons why we started off kicking high, jumping and adding rotations; to look "better" than Karate and to try to emulate TaeKyon. Its still a very young style, only 50 years old and definitely within my short time training you can see the style evolving and the emphasis on those type of kicks is lessening. So yes, those elements are there but people do know they are only for demonstration of athleticism, in reality, nobody really spends that much time on them.

Quote:
4. Literally no grappling techsniques.

I'll admit we're not the most proficient at grappling. The style is limited to the more basic locks, takedowns and throws but for us they are a means to an end to allow us to strike. We don't claim to be good at it and if someone wants to learn these things, don't come looking for them at a TKD school. Even so, I don't think this is a valid reason to bash the style. BJJ doesn't get called ineffective because it lacks strikes and you wouldn't go to a boxing class expecting good grappling knowledge. No style covers everything well and if they claim to, its more likely a case of jack of all trades.

Quote:
5. No defenses against weapons, or weapon usage taught.

This isn't true. We most definitely cover defense against weapons. More specifically, we focus on knife and stick defense as these are the more common ones you'll encounter. But, since it was originally a military style, a lot of the old literature and teachings cover things like bayonet usage and tactics against. Actual usage of any weapons is limited but as above, there are plenty of other good styles which also don't use them. Taekwon-Do is a style of unarmed defense so you'd be better off looking at the Filipino styles if you wanted to master weapons.

Quote:
6. Break a board, get a belt testing mentality. Commercial schools especially are typically geared towards easy belt tests to retain students. (this is where the term McDojo origionated I believe)

Easy belt tests are a symptom of the McDojo yes but don't confuse the breaking requirement with indicating that the school is a McDojo. We have a viewpoint that say for example, at greenbelt you've been taught to sidekick, part of passing that grade is that you've got to understand the technique well enough to generate enough force to break x amounts of boards. Breaking is one of the ways you show that you've understood the power generation through the mechanics and can apply speed and mass properly to the kick/punch. If you can't even do one board, it shows you don't understand it properly.

Montana wrote:

I've also had the opportunity to watch and talk to instructors from many TKD schools (various organizations) in California, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Colorado, Minnesota, Michigan and one in the UK, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with what I'm seeing taught and practiced in TKD schools.

Granted that is a lot of TKD schools, but may I ask what styles/organisations? (I'd be very interested to know which of the UK schools you saw). Because, no offense, but that doesn't mean anything apart from you've seen a lot of bad TKD schools. Its like saying I've visited so many "Karate Schools" when really all I've seen is loads of sport Karate schools or schools borrowing the name for their school of prancing about whilst in a gi. If you're ever in the UK again, I'd be more than happy to point you in the right direction for some real TKD schools.
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