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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyB wrote: |
Basically you would need to take the 'traditional' off karate, to make it into MMA or else it wouldn't stand up to the challenge. I am not talking only about crosstraining but also the abandonment of many Kata techniques and traditional drills that are not effective in an MMA rules enviroment.
After some logical thinking and research, a serious Karateka should know what works and what doesn't, so it comes down to eliminating techniques that are not effective and perfecting the ones that can make you win fights.
Also the MMA Karateka (again like Lyoto Machida and Anderson Silva) should be a master of Tai Sabaki and have the advantage in the tactical and mental game of the fight. |
A karateka can no longer separate him/herself from kata more than one can separate him/herself from karate; they are dependent upon one another across the board.
Kata competitions from the sport aspect is truly unhelpful for the karateka's betterment. It's clear to anyone with a knowledge of real karate, that neither the competitors nor the judges have any idea of the purpose of kata. In sport kata, the visual show is the main goal, and in doing this they abandon classic karate concepts as far as self-defense is concerned.
Karate is suppose to be valuable but the disruption of karate's heredity through the misunderstanding of kata is taken as the proposed gospel of what kata is not.
Relax the rules/regulations, if only for just a moment, one might see what karate can and will effectively do in an MMA venue.
Imho!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Elijah A Elliott
White Belt
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 4
Location: North Wales, UK
Styles: Shukokai Karate
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I have done karate for around 5 years and have recently started competing in MMA and I find that my karate training gives me some big advantages when i fight.
A thing that I noticed straight away is that people from a karate background have quite a vast knowledge of kicks which a large majority of can be used very effectively in the cage.
Another thing is that it seems that distancing yourself your opponent is much easier as well; these are two huge plus points in my opinion.
The obvious downside is the lack of a ground game within karate; when I have fought I have found that my advantages in the standup game from my karate background are quite easily negated on the floor.
In my opinion a fighter from a karate background can have a big advantage in MMA, look at Lyoto Machida for example; although from personal experience a karateka should get some level of ground fighting experience; being choked repeatedly while your opponent sits on top of you is pretty damn frustrating  . |
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JohnnyB
Orange Belt
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Athens, Greece
Styles: Shotokan 2nd Kyu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
A karateka can no longer separate him/herself from kata more than one can separate him/herself from karate; they are dependent upon one another across the board.
Kata competitions from the sport aspect is truly unhelpful for the karateka's betterment. It's clear to anyone with a knowledge of real karate, that neither the competitors nor the judges have any idea of the purpose of kata. In sport kata, the visual show is the main goal, and in doing this they abandon classic karate concepts as far as self-defense is concerned.
Karate is suppose to be valuable but the disruption of karate's heredity through the misunderstanding of kata is taken as the proposed gospel of what kata is not.
Relax the rules/regulations, if only for just a moment, one might see what karate can and will effectively do in an MMA venue.
Imho!!
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For sure my Kata experience so far is limited to judge the total aspect of it.
However from what I've seen, there are quite a few inefficient, archaic techniques that just don't work in modern confrontations between Martial Artists and sometimes even against untrained people.
For example:
haiwan uke: square side block (Heian Nidan)
kakiwake uke: floating x block (Heian Yondan)
In fact almost everything that is using 2 hands to block in one specific height leaving you exposed.
Not forgeting the all time Kata favorite Nukite attack targeted in the solar plexus. Seriously If i see this attack used in MMA just once, no matter the success of it, I'll shut up and never trash Traditional Karate ever again!111
I do understand the mental and physical training that Kata can give but timewise, I would choose something a lot more realistic/efficient for my MMA training. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyB wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
A karateka can no longer separate him/herself from kata more than one can separate him/herself from karate; they are dependent upon one another across the board.
Kata competitions from the sport aspect is truly unhelpful for the karateka's betterment. It's clear to anyone with a knowledge of real karate, that neither the competitors nor the judges have any idea of the purpose of kata. In sport kata, the visual show is the main goal, and in doing this they abandon classic karate concepts as far as self-defense is concerned.
Karate is suppose to be valuable but the disruption of karate's heredity through the misunderstanding of kata is taken as the proposed gospel of what kata is not.
Relax the rules/regulations, if only for just a moment, one might see what karate can and will effectively do in an MMA venue.
Imho!!
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For sure my Kata experience so far is limited to judge the total aspect of it.
However from what I've seen, there are quite a few inefficient, archaic techniques that just don't work in modern confrontations between Martial Artists and sometimes even against untrained people.
For example:
haiwan uke: square side block (Heian Nidan)
kakiwake uke: floating x block (Heian Yondan)
In fact almost everything that is using 2 hands to block in one specific height leaving you exposed.
Not forgeting the all time Kata favorite Nukite attack targeted in the solar plexus. Seriously If i see this attack used in MMA just once, no matter the success of it, I'll shut up and never trash Traditional Karate ever again!111
I do understand the mental and physical training that Kata can give but timewise, I would choose something a lot more realistic/efficient for my MMA training. |
What appears to be a block/deflection is in fact not a block/deflection within kata at all; Tuite comprised of!! You've seen it in MMA more than once, but the exacting movement from said kata you haven't and won't, but nonetheless, the movements have been executed and have been witnessed by the trained eye to recognize them/that as such.
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jaypo
Purple Belt
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520
Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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The square side block in Nidan can actually be interpreted as 2 strikes. Or a simultaneous block and strike (we actually did this last week in class) as well as the opening sequence in Yondan. As for the X block in Sandan, these can either be 2 blocks, double strikes, or an arm break. Imagine an inner chest block, then hooking under the arm with your right arm and hyperextending the elbow joint with the "x block". Then finishing him off by crossing the blocks and double striking him (x block) in the face and solar plexus. (When I perform the kata, I actually use the x blocks as double strikes- I extend my arms a little more forward like I'm executing a stomach punch/backfist and a returning backfist/backhand, if that makes any sense)
In the cage, you can see variations of this in the clinch- especially the square blocks. And in reality, I've used those techniques in street. In the only fight I've gotten into in the last 23 years, the only karate I've had to use was those blocks. And I've never been hit (in that time frame!)
Lately, my Sensei has been drilling into us techniques for fighting in close range. He's showing us variations of katas using short distance tecnhiques. We went thru Naihanchi Nidan last night, and then broke it down move by move in close combat situations. While I don't see too many people in the Octagon in a horse stance doing cross blocks and ball punches, I do see some of the basics from many karate katas being used, even if they aren't in the same context we're used to seeing them in.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Elijah A Elliott wrote: |
I have done karate for around 5 years and have recently started competing in MMA and I find that my karate training gives me some big advantages when i fight.
A thing that I noticed straight away is that people from a karate background have quite a vast knowledge of kicks which a large majority of can be used very effectively in the cage.
Another thing is that it seems that distancing yourself your opponent is much easier as well; these are two huge plus points in my opinion.
The obvious downside is the lack of a ground game within karate; when I have fought I have found that my advantages in the standup game from my karate background are quite easily negated on the floor.
In my opinion a fighter from a karate background can have a big advantage in MMA, look at Lyoto Machida for example; although from personal experience a karateka should get some level of ground fighting experience; being choked repeatedly while your opponent sits on top of you is pretty damn frustrating . |
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. It lends some good input to the discussion here.
I do have a few questions for you in regards to your training. Do you alter your training in any way to train in a more focused way for your MMA matches? Or do you just do your regular class training? Do you do any kind of extra pad work or bag work, and any other kind of sparring training?
I look forward to your answers. 
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Elijah A Elliott
White Belt
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 4
Location: North Wales, UK
Styles: Shukokai Karate
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: |
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bushido_man96 - I do slightly alter my training, we do more sparring and change it to harder sparring and full contact sparring rather than semi contact or point sparring.
We also do a lot more pad work, this is all done within my normal karate lessons and the others in my class are happy to help.
A large percentage of the stuff we practice in sparring and on the pads are modified karate techniques, for example I throw my roundhouse kick without turning my supporting foot the same way, I suppose this is taking away the technique but the moves are karate based, if that makes sense.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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Elijah A Elliott
White Belt
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 4
Location: North Wales, UK
Styles: Shukokai Karate
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| I'm a student |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Elijah A Elliott wrote: |
| I'm a student |
Its very cool that your instructor allows you to work what you need for training into the framework of the classes, then. My current instructor would not do that; I'd have to find the extra time to work in that extra work.
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on the post.
