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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: To Screen Or Not To Screen!! |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
The MA, while it can be viewed by those who are residences of both sides of the fence, MAists and non-MAists, across a wide stroke of any type of brush, that the MA is both beautiful and deadly, it's context, after all, is to injure our attackers in the light of survival.
We don't learn the MA because it's entertainment and all, but moreover, because we want to learn how to defend ourselves, families, friends, and the innocent to the very best of our abilities at all costs.
The MA is construed to be a violent act, and oftentimes, the aftermath can become fatal, whether one intends it to be so or not.
Not everyone uses the MA to cause ill will to another human being. Not everyone uses the MA to carry out the most heinous crimes against another human being. Not everyone uses the MA to perpetrate an evil act against another human being.
Not everyone!!
However, with the good, bad rears up it's ugly head against society for their selfish needs at any costs; there's a bad apple among the good apples, and in that, that bad apple gets by, which is their intent, at spoiling the bunch.
Newspapers, social media, TV, and main media report story after story that depicts a MA who's used their MA skills/knowledge/experience unlawfully. Rapes, molestation, robbery, and murder, to name just a few acts of moral turpitude world wide against the unsuspecting citizens wherever they might live.
So, let me ask you this, if I may...
Do MA instructors have any duty to screen their students before teaching them the skills of physical violence?
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IMHO and in short yes.
When I started in the arts the concept of finding WORTHY students was not just a phrase. You went through a type of screening in that the instructor would ask you questions like "why do you want to learn the MA" and "what do you hope to accomplish" and the like. They would also watch you and study your character during the first month (if it took that) before allowing you to become a member of their school.
We received a name tag or Nafuda from our instructor, which we would then be allowed to slide it into wooden slats called Kake, to signify you had been accepted and are now a member of the Dojo. If your name was not on the Dojo wall you were on a probationary period and were not yet a member of the Dojo. Which meant you had no rights and were junior to everyone.
These students would not be taught anything of any value but would learn how to count, history, etc. Their lessons would also consist of Hojo-Undo training. They would be tasked with cleaning the Dojo. The floors would be cleaned with towels held out in front of the student while running across the floor in an almost push up position. If a student quit or complained they would be shown the door. If they refused or got belligerent they would be shown the door. If they complained that they were not learning anything, you guessed it, shown the door. If the teacher did not like a certain character trait they would be shown the door with no explanation other than your are not welcome to train.
I weed out my students in much the same way. I did not understand this at the time but the older I got the more I understood the method to this in weeding out bad apples as you say.
If a student is hasty and impatient, they will not have the proper mentality to train and are most likely just there to get belts. If they are belligerent and hot headed they do not have the right mentality and will end up hurting a fellow student or others outside of the Dojo. Etc, etc.
To me, whether the law sees this as true or not, the teacher is responsible for their students actions. It's up to the instructor to teach their students when to use what has been taught and when not to. Further more it is IMHO the teachers responsibility to look at the character of his potential students and decide whether they have the right character and are worthy of teaching before accepting them.
I know some will say that they have rent to pay and the like and that is fine. I don't judge. For me, finding and maintaining worthy students is more important than just finding students. You can find them anywhere and they are a dime a dozen.
And yes, I'm old and might be a little out dated in my way of thinking so keep that in mind before blasting me and my old fashioned idea's.
And yes the name tag is, as I later found out years after I started, Japanese in nature and not old school/traditional Okinawan. Having said that I like the practice and continue it to this day.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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For the most part, any type of screening is put on the back burner over financials across the board. I believe that the screening of students is the right thing to do unconditionally.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:11 am Post subject: |
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It’s the right thing to do, but it doesn’t have to take forever or be overly complicated. Screening can consist of just a short meeting with a potential student and asking a few questions about their reasons and goals for learning martial arts.
An instructor with a good sense of character judgment can do this in a few minutes and get general idea of what the person is like. Now whether said students deserves to stay depends on further observation over time in training. Everything following that is up to the instructor’s moral/ethical compass |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:51 am Post subject: Re: To Screen Or Not To Screen!! |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
IMHO and in short yes.
When I started in the arts the concept of finding WORTHY students was not just a phrase. You went through a type of screening in that the instructor would ask you questions like "why do you want to learn the MA" and "what do you hope to accomplish" and the like. They would also watch you and study your character during the first month (if it took that) before allowing you to become a member of their school.
We received a name tag or Nafuda from our instructor, which we would then be allowed to slide it into wooden slats called Kake, to signify you had been accepted and are now a member of the Dojo. If your name was not on the Dojo wall you were on a probationary period and were not yet a member of the Dojo. Which meant you had no rights and were junior to everyone.
These students would not be taught anything of any value but would learn how to count, history, etc. Their lessons would also consist of Hojo-Undo training. They would be tasked with cleaning the Dojo. The floors would be cleaned with towels held out in front of the student while running across the floor in an almost push up position. If a student quit or complained they would be shown the door. If they refused or got belligerent they would be shown the door. If they complained that they were not learning anything, you guessed it, shown the door. If the teacher did not like a certain character trait they would be shown the door with no explanation other than your are not welcome to train.
I weed out my students in much the same way. I did not understand this at the time but the older I got the more I understood the method to this in weeding out bad apples as you say.
If a student is hasty and impatient, they will not have the proper mentality to train and are most likely just there to get belts. If they are belligerent and hot headed they do not have the right mentality and will end up hurting a fellow student or others outside of the Dojo. Etc, etc.
To me, whether the law sees this as true or not, the teacher is responsible for their students actions. It's up to the instructor to teach their students when to use what has been taught and when not to. Further more it is IMHO the teachers responsibility to look at the character of his potential students and decide whether they have the right character and are worthy of teaching before accepting them.
I know some will say that they have rent to pay and the like and that is fine. I don't judge. For me, finding and maintaining worthy students is more important than just finding students. You can find them anywhere and they are a dime a dozen.
And yes, I'm old and might be a little out dated in my way of thinking so keep that in mind before blasting me and my old fashioned idea's.
And yes the name tag is, as I later found out years after I started, Japanese in nature and not old school/traditional Okinawan. Having said that I like the practice and continue it to this day. |
I thought the wooden name tags on the walls were the names of current yudansha, not just members of the dojo. Then again, different dojos have different traditions. I’ve seen the wooden name tags on dojo walls in Okinawa in videos, so I don’t think it’s unheard of for Okinawan teachers here to do so. And even if it’s a Japanese or anything else thing in origin, I think it’s a great tradition so what difference does it really make? Nothing wrong with borrowing a different tradition so long as it fits with what you’re doing and it’s not being done the wrong way IMO.
As far as cleaning the floor like you described, in Seido everyone does it, all throughout the ranks. The lowest ranked student(s) are responsible for handing out the towels, but everyone does it. And it’s considered part of class. No one’s “too good” to clean the floor. And if someone feels they are, they’re in the wrong place. We also have a “dojo cleaning day” once every few months. It’s not required to attend, but just about all of us show up and help. Even the parents who don’t train come to help out. Stuff like that builds a community in the dojo. |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Also very similar dojo rules and customs here. Everybody sweats so everybody wipes the dojo floor with a hand rag. It isn’t just a Japanese martial arts thing. Japanese schools have no janitors or cleaning staff and a strictly taught form kindergarten to clean their own classrooms and hallways in the way we clean our dojos.
If a 75 year old sensei or a 4 year old kid can do it, nobody has a excuse for skipping it. Cleaning the toilets is an honour reserved for the most junior person training on that day.
The wooden name tags and their display boards are in every dojo. There is a divider tag to separate names in each dan or kyu. Names are in black, and ranks divider tags are written in bolder style. All are in order of rank and time they joined the dojo.
It is great if this is one more thing that repulses undesirable characters or makes them think for long enough to reconsider their selfish entitlement mentality. The purpose of doing these things is to get potential martial arts students to realize that if they chose to train, there will always be times when they will not be immediately able to recognize the true value and meaning if that they ar being taught. It never ever ends unless one quits training or seeking some kind of improvement, new ability or deeper understanding in what system one has chosen. |
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The Pred
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385
Styles: Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| We are talking about screening adult students right? Or do you do a background check on the kid who started when they were 5 and is now 16? |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: To Screen Or Not To Screen!! |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
IMHO and in short yes.
When I started in the arts the concept of finding WORTHY students was not just a phrase. You went through a type of screening in that the instructor would ask you questions like "why do you want to learn the MA" and "what do you hope to accomplish" and the like. They would also watch you and study your character during the first month (if it took that) before allowing you to become a member of their school.
We received a name tag or Nafuda from our instructor, which we would then be allowed to slide it into wooden slats called Kake, to signify you had been accepted and are now a member of the Dojo. If your name was not on the Dojo wall you were on a probationary period and were not yet a member of the Dojo. Which meant you had no rights and were junior to everyone.
These students would not be taught anything of any value but would learn how to count, history, etc. Their lessons would also consist of Hojo-Undo training. They would be tasked with cleaning the Dojo. The floors would be cleaned with towels held out in front of the student while running across the floor in an almost push up position. If a student quit or complained they would be shown the door. If they refused or got belligerent they would be shown the door. If they complained that they were not learning anything, you guessed it, shown the door. If the teacher did not like a certain character trait they would be shown the door with no explanation other than your are not welcome to train.
I weed out my students in much the same way. I did not understand this at the time but the older I got the more I understood the method to this in weeding out bad apples as you say.
If a student is hasty and impatient, they will not have the proper mentality to train and are most likely just there to get belts. If they are belligerent and hot headed they do not have the right mentality and will end up hurting a fellow student or others outside of the Dojo. Etc, etc.
To me, whether the law sees this as true or not, the teacher is responsible for their students actions. It's up to the instructor to teach their students when to use what has been taught and when not to. Further more it is IMHO the teachers responsibility to look at the character of his potential students and decide whether they have the right character and are worthy of teaching before accepting them.
I know some will say that they have rent to pay and the like and that is fine. I don't judge. For me, finding and maintaining worthy students is more important than just finding students. You can find them anywhere and they are a dime a dozen.
And yes, I'm old and might be a little out dated in my way of thinking so keep that in mind before blasting me and my old fashioned idea's.
And yes the name tag is, as I later found out years after I started, Japanese in nature and not old school/traditional Okinawan. Having said that I like the practice and continue it to this day. |
I thought the wooden name tags on the walls were the names of current yudansha, not just members of the dojo. Then again, different dojos have different traditions. I’ve seen the wooden name tags on dojo walls in Okinawa in videos, so I don’t think it’s unheard of for Okinawan teachers here to do so. And even if it’s a Japanese or anything else thing in origin, I think it’s a great tradition so what difference does it really make? Nothing wrong with borrowing a different tradition so long as it fits with what you’re doing and it’s not being done the wrong way IMO.
As far as cleaning the floor like you described, in Seido everyone does it, all throughout the ranks. The lowest ranked student(s) are responsible for handing out the towels, but everyone does it. And it’s considered part of class. No one’s “too good” to clean the floor. And if someone feels they are, they’re in the wrong place. We also have a “dojo cleaning day” once every few months. It’s not required to attend, but just about all of us show up and help. Even the parents who don’t train come to help out. Stuff like that builds a community in the dojo. |
To clarify; yes everyone including myself and my Shinshii cleans the Dojo. Like you and others no one is priveledged and I believe in leading by example. However that practice gets put on hiatus when a student(s) are in their probationary period. They clean the Dojo alone with no help for others.
It's a tough job and if a student has the character to endure it and does not show signs of anger or belligerency they will be accepted and the entire class joins in after their acceptance.
Might seem a bit harsh but to be honest I went though it and I've found it tells a lot about a student and you can learn a lot more than a simple sit down and chat. One can disguise their character on a first meeting, kinda like an interview where you put your best foot forward, that is until stress creeps in and your true character is revealed. This is the same thing. You would be surprised at how quickly the true character of a student rears it's ugly head when they are left to clean as everyone else is going home. If there is a temper it shows normally on the first night within the first 15 minutes after class is over and they start the process. Oh and if they are too lazy to stick to a simple chore they will most likely not stick to something that takes a life time. Just saying.
Our way, your way, what ever works I always say. 
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Also very similar dojo rules and customs here. Everybody sweats so everybody wipes the dojo floor with a hand rag. It isn’t just a Japanese martial arts thing. Japanese schools have no janitors or cleaning staff and a strictly taught form kindergarten to clean their own classrooms and hallways in the way we clean our dojos.
If a 75 year old sensei or a 4 year old kid can do it, nobody has a excuse for skipping it. Cleaning the toilets is an honour reserved for the most junior person training on that day.
The wooden name tags and their display boards are in every dojo. There is a divider tag to separate names in each dan or kyu. Names are in black, and ranks divider tags are written in bolder style. All are in order of rank and time they joined the dojo.
It is great if this is one more thing that repulses undesirable characters or makes them think for long enough to reconsider their selfish entitlement mentality. The purpose of doing these things is to get potential martial arts students to realize that if they chose to train, there will always be times when they will not be immediately able to recognize the true value and meaning if that they ar being taught. It never ever ends unless one quits training or seeking some kind of improvement, new ability or deeper understanding in what system one has chosen. |
I agree as I have posted in answer to JR137.
We do not use the name tags in this manner. They are to signify that they are a member of the Dojo and are not in order of rank.
They are in order of time. This is not a purposeful act but as each new member puts their tag in the slats it pretty much tells you when someone started over another.
I have been to many a Okinawan Dojo that does not use the Nafuda. In fact in my area of the world I have not seen this practice outside of my art. I do however know that Japanese Dojo utilize this practice.
My Shinshii started this practice after seeing it used and decided it was a good practice. We have done this ever since. I tend to agree and feel that students, upon being made a member, take great pride in seeing their name on the wall. Motivation if you will.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Pred wrote: |
| We are talking about screening adult students right? Or do you do a background check on the kid who started when they were 5 and is now 16? |
I can't speak for others but I was. I don't teach children.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Setting a minimum age at which to accept students solves many issues. Initial screening and interviewing may be difficult to do for children, but it could be done with the cooperation of the guardians/parents.
The main idea would be to see if the child/youth is there by personal interest instead of being pushed into it. Generally, youths of sixteen an older have at least some capacity to discuss and explain what they want and why when asked directly. Again this would not be the same sort of screening that might be done with adults. If there is some kind of screening, it would have to be tweaked and adapted.
Perhaps it is more practical to rely on observation over a set probation period. Give everybody a chance and give the instructor the time to closely observe the new student. In the end if anything unpleasant or undesirable becomes clear any student can be disciplined or expelled at any time if the instructor deems it appropriate. |
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on the post.
