Too deadly for the ring.

Aikidoka · Orange Belt

Ninjustsu is viscious. They love clawing the eyes and throat or thrusting into pressure points. They practise with iron claws or shuriken or chain-and-sickle. Your not going to practise throwing blinding powder into peoples eyes in the ring are you?

Slider · Orange Belt

I know some friends whose style is ninjitsu....most of the weaponry training is done to keep the tradition of the art alive. They actually do very well in competitions. If you know how to kick properly, punch properly, spar on a regular basis..then thats all you need to compete.
The weapons training can actually benefit you very well when u compete in the weapons, and showmanship divisions.

Hasta!!
Slider

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ChangWuJi · Orange Belt

The goals are not the same. In MMA tournaments, the participants are practicing a sport, albeit a violent one for money, belts and material re-ward. It is essentially a mixture of Western boxing, greco-roman wrestling, kickboxing, and joint locks. doesn't sound as impressive once ya break it down huh?Unhappylesslly, kung-fu is a lie. Because kung-fu does not exist, kung-fu is a nickname invented by westrens to denominate to hability for chinese people in fighting with or without weapons which only means skill attained in anything through hard work. Chinese boxing is the closest term we have to describe what we do. The goal of Chinese boxing in general and Hsing I in particular is to attack an opponent, or defend against one, in as expedient a manner possible to take him out. Eye gouging, windpipe destruction and breaking of joints and bones are the most common techniques. Obviously, these have no place in a sporting event.

In the beginning of the MMA scene, there were a few representatives from Chinese styles who performed poorly. But you have to realize, they used completely inappropriate techniques such as opening with kicking. How stupid is this with a grappler!

In Hsing I , all we have is 5 strikes. Does that sound too complicated to bring to instinctual level?

A real streetfight has guns, knives, sticks, tables, chairs, parked cars, brick walls etc... involved. it is nothing like 2 guys with tights running around in a little caged boxing ring. oh not to mention multiple attackers, methinks Chinese boxing addresses this. hmmm.....

It seems to me as if you owe it to yourself to do a little more research into Traditional Chinese boxing before dismissing it. If Hsing I didnt work, the Peoples Republic of China would not currently employ it as their main CQB system, now would they!

Why is it that some practitioners of arts specializing in grappling arts always make the erroneous assumption that the rest of us will be completely unprepared, taken to the ground, and either pummelled into submission or have something broken? We are ready for them, we have surprises waiting for them so that the first strike takes them completely out of the offensive mindset.

Keep in mind a UFC bout not too long ago when a ground-n-pounder by the name of Mark Coleman got his * handed to him by a much smaller man named Maurice Smith. Smith was primarily a striker but survived on the ground long enough to get back on his feet and open a jumbo-sized can of whoopass on Coleman.

The tradition you refer to is the ability to kill a man with or without weapons. Chinese boxing is not a dance(at least not the traditional variety). These arts were used for at least 300 years in life and death battlefield situations to survive. When compared to the more recently developed sports(notice the term sports) such as mixed martial arts , one only has to research a little history to see that styles such as Hsing I has proven itself as combat effective over a far longer time span than the previously mentioned style.

Out of curiosity, what style do you advocate for combat effectiveness and why?

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

While MMA is a sport, one must realise that sport is merely another training method, a very good one. It is a fallacy to think that a MMA fighter will lose in the street where there are not rules. I know plenty of MMA fighters that train with weapons, eye-gouges and other "dirty" tactics of the street. Their knowledge from the ring helps to augment their ability. I think it's a fallacy to rely upon eye-gouges and dirty tricks to win fights. In the end it comes down to training. The one who trains best will probably win. MMA fighters train very well, but they must also train with weapons and other street tactics also.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

While MMA is a sport, one must realise that sport is merely another training method, a very good one. It is a fallacy to think that a MMA fighter will lose in the street where there are not rules. I know plenty of MMA fighters that train with weapons, eye-gouges and other "dirty" tactics of the street. Their knowledge from the ring helps to augment their ability. I think it's a fallacy to rely upon eye-gouges and dirty tricks to win fights. In the end it comes down to training. The one who trains best will probably win. MMA fighters train very well, but they must also train with weapons and other street tactics also.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

ChangWuJi · Orange Belt

(This post is a bit off topic and is also kind of a reply to the other ground fighting thread)

If there were no rules , then somebody should have died. I dont believe that Hsing I people feel they have anything to prove. It is only self-doubt, or foolish ego ( see Machismo) which drives someone to embarrass themseves in such a way. It's like saying, "I think my style works, but it never having been used successfully in battle, and it being such a new style, I just dont know. What you have to realize sir is that the Japanese brought JuJitsu to Brazil. They took a piece of it, and ignored the rest of the system. The JuJitsu system has everything that BBJ has and a lot more.

the SEAL's currently train their folks with a system called SCARS- this stands for Scientific Combat Aggressive Reactionary System. But ya know , it looks a whole hell of alot like Hsing I . The priciples of rooting, whole body movement etc.. are the same in both systems.

I saw the special on TLC on Martial Arts, and the section detailing some H2H training the Rangers received at Fort Benning, GA. The ability to be effective while on the ground is a neccessary part of any combat system. However, the BJJ style is an adaption of traditional Jui Jitsu and has focused on the one on one confrontation. Any style that seeks to go to the ground will not be effective against anyone other than the person going to the ground with you.

It is one thing to find yourself in a disadvantageous position ie -on the ground, but it is an entirely different proposition to seek and desire this from the onset. Let's face it, the Gracies have demonstrated very poor punching and kicking skills. Their goal is to shoot in, take a strike to the head, and tackle the man, going to the ground with him. No soldier would ever knowingly put himself in this position so that he is vulnerable to having his head stomped in by an unskilled child, much less a soldier armed with a bayoneted rifle. If you will recall the segment from ther TLC special, the entry used was not from BJJ, but was one from a TRADITIONAL art ; Judo. It is a throw known as a sacrifice throw in which you attach yourself to your opponent, roll backwards with your bent leg in his chest and flip on top of him. So I hope you see that my position isnt that groundfighting isnt viable in a refereed situation or an "honorable street contest" where onlookers are restrained from becoming involved. This just isnt practical for the jungles on foreign or domestic urban soil.

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

Brazillian jujitsu isn't a military art, it is a self-defense art for the average citizen. But I do know that they teach aspects of BJJ along with other systems in the military.

SCARS is taught only to BUDS personel, after that, the SEAL teams each have their own different people they contract out their hand-hand combat training to.

I think your arguement is a huge fallacy. The MMA sport is a duel, yes, but to think that these people cannot do well in combat situations doesn't follow any logic.

'The JuJitsu system has everything that BBJ has and a lot more. '
Except that the Brazillians have improved much upon the concepts, techniques and leverage systems.

'I dont believe that Hsing I people feel they have anything to prove. It is only self-doubt, or foolish ego ( see Machismo) which drives someone to embarrass themseves in such a way.'
Well, if you believe the Hsing I people will only embarrass themselves, I guess I can't argue. It's harder to make a person submit than to kill them. I guess the Hsing I people just can't do anything but kill people.

'If you will recall the segment from ther TLC special, the entry used was not from BJJ, but was one from a TRADITIONAL art ; Judo. '
The same throws are in BJJ, everything in Judo is also in Brazillian Jujitsu, it's just that they concentrate more on the ground fighting.

"This just isnt practical for the jungles on foreign or domestic urban soil. "
It may not be practical, but sometimes it is unavoidable. The goal of a BJJ is not to win on the ground, it's to win however they can. Of course, they specialize on the ground, that's why many MMA fighters are cross-training in Muay Thai, Boxing and other arts. The smart ones are also training in weapons and firearms.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

ChangWuJi · Orange Belt

"Brazillian jujitsu isn't a military art, it is
a self-defense art for the average
citizen. But I do know that they teach
aspects of BJJ along with other systems in
the military.
SCARS is taught only to BUDS personel, after
that, the SEAL teams each have their own
different people they contract out their
hand-hand combat training to."

If you say so.

"I think your arguement is a huge
fallacy. The MMA sport is a duel, yes, but
to think that these people cannot do well
in combat situations doesn't follow any
logic."

Only the fact that there are referees to stop fights once they progress too far.

"Except that the Brazillians have improved
much upon the concepts, techniques and
leverage systems."

Seems to me as if they took a small part of the art, groundwork, and totally ignored stand-up grappling, good kicking skills, good striking skills. So the improvement to which you refer must be with the groundwork, and certainly not with the whole system.

"Well, if you believe the Hsing I people will
only embarrass themselves, I guess I can't
argue."

The embarrassment to which I alluded is that which must be felt by the BJJ practitioner each time he has to to question the efficacy of his chosen discipline by engaging in sport fighting. We know our art is effective.

"It's harder to make a person submit
than to kill them. I guess the Hsing I
people just can't do anything but kill
people."

Which of those two skills would you rather have when your family is threatened, submission or lethal?. While you waste your time in ground position securing an armbar. The other guys buddy could be raping your wife! Look, grappling has it's place in a controlled environment, such as a ring or "rasslin" with a friend one to one. But I wouldn't want to tie myself up with one guy to the exclusion of dealing with his buddy/ies. Not to mention how easy it is for a young kid to walk up to you wearing boots, and while you're on the ground "submitting" someone, he stomps on your head. See Ya!

"The same throws are in BJJ, everything in
Judo is also in Brazillian Jujitsu, it's
just that they concentrate more on the
ground fighting."

That's simply not true. BJJ has taken aspects from Jujitsu and Judo, and it is true that all of BJJ techniques are contained within these 2 arts, however one cannot say the inverse is true.

"It may not be practical"

If you say it's not practical, then you concede the point I have been trying to make all along. People on here asked "Why study Chinese Boxing?". Quite simply because it works. It is practical, and it doesnt require a certain environment or other factors to make it so.

"but sometimes it is
unavoidable."

Thats true, my teacher addresses that possibility, however we will not approach it from a BJJ perspective. Our principles will remain intact in dealing with ground survival, because our goal is to get to our feet as quickly as possible, not stay down there.

"The goal of a BJJ is not to
win on the ground, it's to win however
they can. Of course, they specialize on
the ground"

Let's be honest and say that they are seriously deficient in their striking techniques. An exception would be some of the Vale Tudo guys like Marco Ruas etc... Some of those guys can punch!

"that's why many MMA fighters
are cross-training in Muay Thai, Boxing
and other arts."

If I have to study one art for punching, another art for kicking, and still another for grappling, when am I ever going to have time to master one?
I just happen to love economy and simplicity, and I find all I need to be combat effective within Hsing I.

"The smart ones are also
training in weapons and firearms."

Absolutely!

[ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2002-01-22 19:05 ]

Angus · Black Belt

"If you say so"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

"I'm going to take appart your argument piece by piece and try to make you look silly"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

"I like using inverted commas"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

"Look at me, i can use this shift function on my keyboard"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

"My cat's breath smells like cat-food"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Far out people!
Angus

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Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear.

Tobias_Reece · Brown Belt

Once again Angus has taken a interesting and educated discussion into new lows. Well done Angus!!

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