Too many Kata or not enough?

JR 137 · Black Belt

The more I read this thread and contemplate it, the more it becomes obvious to me that there needs to be a balance. A balance of not too few and not too many.

More kata equals more options. If the school teaches only 5 kata throughout the entire syllabus, what if the student doesn’t “get it” with those 5 kata or those kata don’t “click?” There are some kata that I’m required to know, but I honestly don’t think they have as much value as others I know. Case in point Pinan 3. I know the kata, I’ve seen a lot of bunkai from it, and I’ve done my fair share in the past. I just don’t like the bunkai from it and wouldn’t use much of it as my “go to” stuff. I doubt practicing and breaking down that one for several years would change my mind. Then there’s Saiha/Saifa that just works for me. When doing that one and breaking it down, it just flat out makes sense and I could easily solely do that one for years. Sanchin too, although for different reasons.

Then you have the camp with 2-3 kata for each kyu level, and a few at each dan level. You’re talking 30+ when all’s said and done here. How much understanding can you get for each kata?

But by having more kata, the student can have more options. Not in the number of available techniques sense, but can easier choose a specialty, so to speak. Let’s say I start a school and have 15 required kata in my syllabus. Some will love some kata and go through the motions with other kata. The student can choose which kata they study a mile deep, and which ones they study a few feet deep. That doesn’t mean the student dictates which kata they’ll learn nor the level of competence of each kata, but rather as they advance through the ranks they can make certain kata “their own.” They can have a handful of kata they truly know and can keep exploring vs when there’s only 5 options, they may only have a single one that really stands out to them.

With more kata, there’s also more to go back to. What was an effective and boring kata can be viewed differently later on when they’ve got more experience and can see things in a different light and through a more experienced lens. What was once not desirable is now a really good thing.

None of this is to being in more students by broadening the art. It’s about keeping who you’ve got interested for the long term. A good example is at nidan there’s only one empty handed kata in my school’s syllabus. What if I despise that kata? It’s the only one for a good 3-4 years minimum. And if my organization only does a handful of kata beforehand, I’m going to get burnt out. Our 8th kyus only know 3 kata, two of which are practically indistinguishable (taikyoku 1 middle punch be taikyoku 2 high punch). They tend to get this look on their face like “when am I going to do something else?” Now imagine if that went on for 3-4 years minimum.

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

JR 137,

Good points. I get what you are saying.

I guess it depends on WHAT Kata you're studying and HOW you are studying it and HOW it is taught.

Yes, you would get extremely bored practicing the same Kata for two to three years in the way most practice it. However if the Kata is studied rather than performed, meaning breaking it down to it's individual postures (what most call Bunkai, albeit inaccurately) then it takes that amount of time and since you are discovering something new all of the time you don't get bored.

Having said this there are some Kata that do not take as much time as there are fewer applications and others that take years.

We learn Pinan Shodan and Nidan, Seisan, Niahanchi Shodan and Nidan through the Mudansha grades. All must be known and understood (that's the key, understood) to test for Shodan. Now that is not to say that the next Kata aren't picked up by the students as they tend to see and or might even start learning the next Kata(s). But the emphasis is on learning the required Kata.

Five Kata doesn't seem like much to learn while progressing from Hachikyu through Ikkyu. In most arts I would agree. However just Naihanchi Shodan takes on average two years to learn/study. It typically takes five to seven years for someone to be ready to test for Shodan.

Now when you consider that the Kata contains the art and the elements (Atemi or percussive impact, Muto or Tegumi, Tuidi, Chi'gwa, Chibudi, Ti'gwa, and Buki'gwa or Kobudo [yes there are elements and applications of weapons disarming and use contained within the Kata] think Kusanku or Jitte/Jutte) that make up our art and you begin to realize that each posture represents one of more of the elements and possibly many of each, you begin to realize that there are a ton of lessons contained within each Kata.

If you research you'll learn that originally each Kata contained the lessons of an entire art. That's right one Kata was the art. When you realize this and consider that most arts today contain up to 30+ Kata as you said, you begin to realize that obtaining any real understanding of the applications contained is slight because the emphasis is not on understanding the postures and movements but rather on learning the Kata itself.

I think it really depends on what you're learning and how it is taught rather than how many or few Kata.

I think it goes back to the adage Quality vs Quantity.

Oh and I forgot to point out that this is not a stagnant process nor is it a dictated process where the teacher dictates and the student does. The student(s) are encouraged to analyze the postures contained within the Kata and try to discover other meanings besides what is taught. There by obtaining a deeper understanding and developing an analytical thought process about how you are attacked and what can be used to defend, counter, or attack.

We teach what we call the three types of applications. The founders applications are what the Kata was created from and where passed down directly from the arts that influenced the founder and therefore were used to create the Kata/Hsing.

The second type is what we call literal applications. These unlike the founders applications look like the Kata and go with the sequences of the Kata.

The third type is what we call created or what most call today practical applications. This is where the student has the ability to discover other uses or meaning of each of the postures. They can be taught (passed down from others) or learned.

The instructor will pass down viable applications that he developed or learned to the student as alternative applications. However the student(s) themselves take on the role of self discovery as they go through the process of Bunkai, Bunseki and Oyo in finding viable effective alternatives.

This is proofed by the student in two person drills and they further proofed by the instructor as to it's viability and effectiveness.

So yes is you only had a few Kata and you learned them via the modern day methods you would be bored stiff. However if they are learned vs. practiced I believe you would find them not so boring.

Either way it's up to the individual instructor as to how they teach and how many Kata they require. For us fewer are better. For others there can't be enough.

To each there own.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

sensei8 · KF Sensei

Spartacus Maximus · Black Belt

Just learning to execute all the kata of a system can be done in a very short time. Doing this repeatedly is not only tedious but also meaningless if nothing else is done. Such a practice is what defeats the purpose of kata and reduces them to a kind of martial dance.

The reason why even a very short kata with only a few moves can be studied for years is that it takes that long to analyze each and every principle it contains. Once these are understood, they must be trained until they become useable. That is what takes so much time and effort. It is also why only a very small number of kata are truly necessary if one’s only goal is self-defense rather than mastering a systems X number of kata.

	KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate	All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3