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Musipilot
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 31
Location: Long Beach, NY
Styles: Kang Kuk Mu Kwon TKD
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:29 am Post subject: Tough one...what do you guys think? |
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This one has me going back and forth with everyone from fellow students in my martial arts school to my co-workers...and people seem evenly divided on the subject.
My school is a satellite of a larger school nearby. We go to the larger school for our testing. I'm a high brown belt, and when I'm done with my testing I will usually hold boards for breaking for other students. So...I pick up the wood and gesture this 40 year old man over for his breaking session. I shake his hand, ask him if he knows his breaks...then we face the master, bow, face each other, bow, and go about the breaking.
I have him face front, ask him to bow, and he doesn't. I asked if something was wrong...he says, "I don't bow, it is against my religion.". He is a Muslim, and apparantly he feels he cannot bow.
Ok.
Keep in mind I'm just a lowly brown belt, but I felt a little awkward about this, and got a little annoyed at the student. I didn't say anything to him, as I felt it really isn't my place, and did his breaking with him. He was polite, and seems to be a good student (he's going for his high yellow belt) but the bowing thing bothered me.
I asked my instructor about it, and he said "Well, if the Master is okay with it, I guess we should be too".
I suppose thats the case...but I'm still not okay with it. Personally, I feel if he can't bow, then go do something else, but some of my friends think thats too hard a stance to take. Others think that if the master is okay with it, I should have no issues with it.
What do you guys think?
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Gyte
Orange Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 100
Location: Netherlands
Styles: Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:30 am Post subject: |
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I am a muslim and I can assure you that bowing isn't against the Islamic belief. Perhaps this man thinks that bowing is part of some Buddistic ritual and that's why he thinks it's against his religion. Bowing is off course not a Buddistic ritual. It is in fact a custom of politeness of eastern culture.
I have a question for you. Is this man much older than you ? Then perhaps the reason for his behauvior could be that he was feeling superior to you because of his age. A very stupid thought off course, but don't worry that's just how some people are like.
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"Practising karate means a lifetime of hard work."
~Gichin Funakoshi |
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TangSooGuy
Blue Belt
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 324
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Styles: Tang Soo Do
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:12 am Post subject: |
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As far as I am aware (fully admitting that I could be wrong)
bowing to another person as a sign of mutual respect does not conflict with any religion.
It is only bowing down to another person or image as a sign of worship that is against many religious beliefs, which is why many people will not bow to Buddhist or Shinto shrines that are displayed in some martial arts studios.
I feel that in the second case, they are perfectly within their rights. In the first case however, I think that they eitehr don't unserstand the concept of bowing, or they don't fully understand their own religion. If anyone tells me they cannot bow in my studio, I try to, as calmly as possible, first explain the reasons why we bow, and if they are still uncomfortable with it, I suggest that tthey may want to look around and see whether there is another studio where they will be more comfortable. I'd be willing to try to work something out if they truly had a burning desire to train, but in my opinion, allowing yourself to bow is the first step towards many lessons in humility and respect. Anyone who outright refuses to do so is going to have a hard time.
That's just my opinion, though...I'm sure there are others who have valid reasons to disagree with me. |
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Ironberg
Red Belt
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 801
Location: Minnesota, USA
Styles: American Karate, WTF Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, Jeet Kune Do
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:26 am Post subject: |
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We bow out of tradition and courtesy - not for any religious reasons. Bowing isn't a religious ritual and is a practice in many eastern cultures. Even in western cultures, bowing was merely a symbol of respect to the king, Bishop, or whatever.
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"An enlightened man would offer a weary traveler a bed for the night, and invite him to share a civilized conversation over a bowl of... Cocoa Puffs." |
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SBN Doug
KF VIP
Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 3767
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Kuk Sool Won
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Red J
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 2278
Location: WPB, FL
Styles: Shaolin Kempo Sandan
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Tough one...what do you guys think? |
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| Musipilot wrote: |
I asked my instructor about it, and he said "Well, if the Master is okay with it, I guess we should be too".
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Your master has the last word on it and may know details that you are not privy to. I once inquired about something that I was not fond of and the senior student I was talking to told me a simular answer. Of course it doesn't mean that I liked or agreed with it but I had to accept that responsibilty of the situation rested with the master of the dojo.
My two cents...
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I had to lose my mind to come to my senses. |
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SaiFightsMS
KF VIP
Joined: 28 Oct 2001
Posts: 6397
Location: Ohio
Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Shi-to Ryu
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The jukoka who took the issue to a court case when denied entrance to tournaments for refusing to bow for the same reason lost their case. |
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krunchyfrogg
Green Belt
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 385
Location: Morris Plains, NJ
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Bowing is a japanese style handshake. Nothing more, nothing less.
Heck, I bow to my sensei and fellow karate-ka outside of the dojo!
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"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke |
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Rat-30
White Belt
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 7
Location: D/FW Texas
Styles: San Sai Ryu Karate, Kenjutsu
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| krunchyfrogg wrote: |
Bowing is a japanese style handshake. Nothing more, nothing less.
Heck, I bow to my sensei and fellow karate-ka outside of the dojo! |
I bow before no man, only to my Christian God.
I do, however, engage in several respectful practices, such as saluting (tracing it's lineage to medieval times-lifting the face plate of armor), removing my sunglasses to expose my eyes in polite conversations, and bowing in martial arts class to pay my respects to the instructor, and senior members.
No religious connotations on my part at all. None asked for in my dojo, none implied.
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All the best,
John |
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Red J
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 2278
Location: WPB, FL
Styles: Shaolin Kempo Sandan
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Rat-30 wrote: |
I do, however, engage in several respectful practices, such as .....removing my sunglasses to expose my eyes in polite conversations.... |
Talk about a lost art. It is a pet peeve of mine when people engage you in conversation and you can't see their eyes.....especially when you are indoors!  
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I had to lose my mind to come to my senses. |
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on the post.
