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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Training and Progression Time Reply with quote

Its been said that martial arts can't be rushed but still, its common sense that a person who puts more into it will get more out of it and will progress faster. For instance, lets say there's somebody who goes to a martial arts class and they go in twice a week. Now, there's somebody else going in three times a week. All other factors being equal the person going in three times a week is going to develop knowledge and skill faster and will progress in the martial arts faster.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless the person that trains 3 times a week is unable to recover fast enough, so cumulatively and gradually they become more damaged and less fit.

The person that trains 3 times a week AND realises that giving 100% means paying attention to the often overlooked details like breathing, posture etc and signals coming from the body, will indeed progress faster than the person training twice. However, the person that trains diligently twice a week will progress faster than a person that pushes their physical limit 3 times a week without focusing on the details.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27629
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I think OneKickWonder is saying is that just training more doesn't necessarily means that you are training better.

Also, I think its important to note that many people who train in Martial Arts are doing so by working Martial Arts into the very limited amount of free time they have in their lives. This is very difficult, and finding the time to add extra training sessions can become difficult. This contributes to the common student's lack of availability to spend time training.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
What I think OneKickWonder is saying is that just training more doesn't necessarily means that you are training better.



That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for wording it more succinctly than I managed
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Unless the person that trains 3 times a week is unable to recover fast enough, so cumulatively and gradually they become more damaged and less fit.

The person that trains 3 times a week AND realises that giving 100% means paying attention to the often overlooked details like breathing, posture etc and signals coming from the body, will indeed progress faster than the person training twice. However, the person that trains diligently twice a week will progress faster than a person that pushes their physical limit 3 times a week without focusing on the details.


Well as I said in my first post, if all other factors are equal. If all other factors are equal the person training 3 times a week will progress faster than the person training 2 times a week.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
Unless the person that trains 3 times a week is unable to recover fast enough, so cumulatively and gradually they become more damaged and less fit.

The person that trains 3 times a week AND realises that giving 100% means paying attention to the often overlooked details like breathing, posture etc and signals coming from the body, will indeed progress faster than the person training twice. However, the person that trains diligently twice a week will progress faster than a person that pushes their physical limit 3 times a week without focusing on the details.


Well as I said in my first post, if all other factors are equal. If all other factors are equal the person training 3 times a week will progress faster than the person training 2 times a week.


No. Not necessarily.

If two people are identical in every way, and have identical lifestyle diet etc, we could assume they will have identical recovery rate.

Every time we do any form of physical training, we actually injure our muscles. I don't mean as in properly hurt ourselves, I mean that to stimulate the process of strengthening muscles, we have to work those muscles to the point were some muscle fibres become physically damaged. When this happens, the damaged muscle is actually weaker than it was before, because you've just worked it to its limit and damaged it. That sounds bad, but as long as you don't go too far, it's perfectly normal.

Different people have different recovery rates. The recovery rate could be plotted on a graph as strength over time following exercise. In that case, you'd see strength fall immediately after exercise, then gradually rise again. If you never exercise again, at some point the line would reach the level it was at immediately before you did exercise. Shortly after, it would rise further, at which point you are fitter and stronger than before the exercise. If you continued to rest for even longer, the line would start going downhill again as the muscle begins to atrophy.

The point at which the line on our graph returns to the pre exercise level is our recovery rate. For some people, it might be as short as 24 hours. For others it could be as long as 10 days.

Now let's say for our two identical martial artists, it turns out that recovery rate is 2 days. Then you're right. The one that trains 3 times a week will progress faster.

Now let's say their recovery rate is ever so slightly longer, at 3 days. That's not unrealistic. Now the person that trains 3 times a week needs to somehow fit a total of 9 days recovery time into a 7 day week. It can't be done, so they gradually burn out through over training. Our 2 day a week person on the other hand only has to fit a total of 6 days recovery into a 7 day week. That works, so he gradually becomes fitter and stronger and more able.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tell my students all the time regarding study time:

Quality > Quantity
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2326
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A huge portion of martial arts is muscle memory. Repetition is key here. The more reps, the deeper and somewhat quicker itís ingrained. But theyíve got to be quality reps or else mistakes/flaws become ingrained.

Then thereís cognitive memory. The more reps, feedback from a good instructor, and different looks they get from sparring partners, the better. Again, so long as itís quality stuff.

Physical activity demands quantity and quality. The more skilled and technical the activity, the more the benefit of extra reps. Look at baseball. Hitting is about as technical as it gets. Iíve heard an analogy of baseball hitting vs golf - as difficult as hitting a golf ball where you want it to go is, imagine trying to do the same if the golf ball was moving at you at 80 mph in an unpredictable manner. Ask an honest and good baseball player how often he needs to see live pitching, and heíll tell you he needs to see it every day to keep sharp.

MA is similar. But there comes a point of too much. One has to factor in burnout and overtraining. Too much will mentally and physically set the MAist back until the find their balance. Itís a tricky balance, and different for everyone.

I see trends that seem to exist in both dojos Iíve trained at. Brand new students usually come in 2-3 times a week. Theyíre excited and want to do more, but the curriculumís a bit limited so thereís only so much they can do. Once they get to the intermediate level, say 4th or so, they start coming more and more. Quite a few come in 4 times a week for several months. Theyíre very excited and have been progressing for some time, and everythingís going great. They see the improvement and the people around them acknowledge it more.

Then they plateau. However they usually plateau more in their minds than in actuality. And promotions are further apart; instead of promoting every 3-4 months, itís every 6-7. The race to the next belt starts becoming middle distance running instead of a sprint. The ones who were double promoting here and there because they were around so often and genuinely improved quicker than the norm arenít anymore because the materialís more in-depth and physically demanding. They start to realize that itís not a sprint, itís a marathon. As they progress further, they realize itís not a marathon either; in fact itís not a race at all. Why? A race has a winner and a finish line. Thereís no finish line in MA. Barring extremes of being physically unable to ever train again.

So long as oneís not overtraining and becoming mentally and physically burned out, has quality reps, and isnít ignoring their true responsibilities in life, more is better. But those are some realistic and very big ifs.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14254
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The beauty about time and progression is that it vary's, just as individuals vary; we're different across the board. Nothing is general in this concern per my aforementioned sentence.

Both, time and progression, move at there own pace with nothing ever guaranteed one way or another.




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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6118
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to train smart as well as hard.

JR 137 wrote:
Then they plateau. However they usually plateau more in their minds than in actuality. And promotions are further apart; instead of promoting every 3-4 months, itís every 6-7. The race to the next belt starts becoming middle distance running instead of a sprint. The ones who were double promoting here and there because they were around so often and genuinely improved quicker than the norm arenít anymore because the materialís more in-depth and physically demanding. They start to realize that itís not a sprint, itís a marathon. As they progress further, they realize itís not a marathon either; in fact itís not a race at all. Why? A race has a winner and a finish line. Thereís no finish line in MA. Barring extremes of being physically unable to ever train again.

Definitely agree with JR that it's easy to burnout if you're not careful. For most it is better to moderate how often they train for both healthy mind and healthy body.
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