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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Training for current threats Reply with quote

Every government/military/police force in the world adapts their readiness strategy to suit whatever is the perceived threat of the time.

Within the world if combat sport, the same is true. We saw kick boxing and BJJ became the core of MMA until everyone did the same, so some folks looked to other styles for that new technique that would catch an opponent off guard.

But what about self defence? Is that changing? In France and Britain we've seen more than a few terror attacks featuring random knife attacks. Is it possible to train for that (other than keeping your eyes open and learning to run fast)?

In several martial arts styles, knife defences are practiced. But the drills are often so unrealistic. Usually one on one squared up. Scenarios like the classic street robbery knife to the throat, or the psychotic overhead ice pick attack.

I know that stats suggest there's little you can do in a knife attack situation. But is that the truth, or is it just that nobody trains effectively for realistic scenarios?

This musing is in the wake of yet another tragic incident in France today, with one person killed and several injured in what so far appears to be a fairly random attack.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as a knife threats concerned, the one constant about a knife attack is...be sure that you bring a gun to the knife fight.

All I can do is continue to train; honing my skills in the best way that I know in the event that I'm attacked. Realistic offense and defense have to be sharpened across the board both mentally as well as physically.

Self-defense might be changing, however, I believe that in the core of self-defense human beings are what they are, and in that, known limitations of the human body are unchanging. It's man/woman VS man/woman; keeping it all as sensible as possible...not being overwhelmed by the threat.

Reading up on the rage of the page new threats is one thing, but if at all possible, realistic training to recognize them, prevent them, and to defend against them is far better than pretending that whatever won't ever happen to you.

The MA has it's limitations, and the human being is THAT limitations of the MA; we're our worse enemy. Within our world, there are things that we can defend against, in which we can be prepared for, and if I can be prepared for it, then I might be able to defend against it. However, there are things in this world that we can't defend against, chemical threats, to name just one, be that doesn't mean that we don't prepare for that possibility.

Do the best that one can; never giving up!!



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1710

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key principle is to train for what happens most so that one can deal with most of what might happen. More important to self defense than any technique of using force is learning to use ones wits. Training to spot potential dangers and risky situations. Learning to read the subtle warnings of imminent violence is the best way to anticipate and avoid it before physical defense becomes necessary.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get all of the above. But do we think it's even possible to train from the awful scenario that developed in Paris last night, with a knife wielding terrorist randomly attacking innocent passers by?

Most knife defences I've practiced (across several schools in several styles) or seen (across even more schools and styles) seem highly impractical. The stats, i keep hearing, suggest that knife defences are not very effective. But my question really is, is that because we train rubbish knife defence techniques or is it inherently impossible to train effective knife defence?
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
As far as a knife threats concerned, the one constant about a knife attack is...be sure that you bring a gun to the knife fight.



As much as I agree with that statement, unfortunately much of the world, including the UK, does not recognize the citizens right to bear arms. The only thing that comes to mind is to train realistic scenarios and do what you can to even the odds a bit. Learn empty hand techniques and hanbo or other similar weapon. Those skills are easily transferrable to a cane or umbrella.

Then become a hipster so you can carry a cane ironically.

Bonus points if you carry a Bitners flask cane... for the Gatorade to replace electrolytes post-fight.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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Lupin1
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1603
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
As far as a knife threats concerned, the one constant about a knife attack is...be sure that you bring a gun to the knife fight.



Spoken like a Texan.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important to point out that if training for knife defense the instructor should tell their students that there is not just a possibility of getting cut but an absolute.

If against a non-trained opponent your chances are better of being able to disarm them but the understanding that even with the most inexperienced opponent the chances of getting cut or stabbed are high. Against an experienced knife fighter... forget it, your getting cut, slashed, stabbed and if your really lucky you'll live to talk about it but don't count on it.

I've been through a variety of unarmed knife defense classes and 98% of what is taught is useless against a trained knife fighter. If you're going to learn how to defend against knife attacks I would highly suggest you take a knife fighting art.

I hate to say it but the techniques taught in most unarmed arts are ridiculous against an experienced knife fighter.

Just my 2 cents.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I think it's important to point out that if training for knife defense the instructor should tell their students that there is not just a possibility of getting cut but an absolute.

If against a non-trained opponent your chances are better of being able to disarm them but the understanding that even with the most inexperienced opponent the chances of getting cut or stabbed are high. Against an experienced knife fighter... forget it, your getting cut, slashed, stabbed and if your really lucky you'll live to talk about it but don't count on it.

I've been through a variety of unarmed knife defense classes and 98% of what is taught is useless against a trained knife fighter. If you're going to learn how to defend against knife attacks I would highly suggest you take a knife fighting art.

I hate to say it but the techniques taught in most unarmed arts are ridiculous against an experienced knife fighter.

Just my 2 cents.


Agree. That is why it helps to bring a gun. And friends with guns.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I think it's important to point out that if training for knife defense the instructor should tell their students that there is not just a possibility of getting cut but an absolute.

If against a non-trained opponent your chances are better of being able to disarm them but the understanding that even with the most inexperienced opponent the chances of getting cut or stabbed are high. Against an experienced knife fighter... forget it, your getting cut, slashed, stabbed and if your really lucky you'll live to talk about it but don't count on it.

I've been through a variety of unarmed knife defense classes and 98% of what is taught is useless against a trained knife fighter. If you're going to learn how to defend against knife attacks I would highly suggest you take a knife fighting art.

I hate to say it but the techniques taught in most unarmed arts are ridiculous against an experienced knife fighter.

Just my 2 cents.


Agree. That is why it helps to bring a gun. And friends with guns.


Can you give an example of a real event where that worked?
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6125
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great topic OneKickWonder. I think it's very prudent to think exactly about what threats are in your environment and tailor your training accordingly. There was an extensive report by the WHO a few years ago looking at causes of violent death in each country. In Europe it was definitely more knife crime or blunt force whereas in the US it was guns. As a European / Brit, the chances of me encountering a gun are much lower than a knife so it makes more sense to train for knife defense than gun defense.
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