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chrissyp
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 175

Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Two part question: Backfist vs jab, and Karate blocks Reply with quote

1) As i've stated in another post, i'm a muay thai guy learning shotokan, and they're teaching me the back fist...as of now, i'm having trouble thinking of the practicality of it. To me, it seems like a weak jab and an off angle...more than likely, but i'm wondering if anyone can tell me when I would use one instead of the other, the mindset behind this technique?

2) they're also teaching me traditional blocks...as of now, i'm trying to figure out how do I apply this to muay thai/mma? how can I adapt that to my game?
is that the wrong mentality to have though about learning? My mindset is I want to do muay thai and knockdown, maybe get back into MMA, just wondering if this can be practical to my game.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Video coming soon.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUrtAwL-HU

Try to ignore the slurping sounds of the doggy drinking water under the camera.
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chrissyp
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 175

Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MasterPain wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUrtAwL-HU

Try to ignore the slurping sounds of the doggy drinking water under the camera.


TY SO MUCH!!!! Very insightful!

P.S. I -LOVE- your husky!!! It looks dead on like mine!! such good dogs!
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrissyp wrote:
MasterPain wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUrtAwL-HU

Try to ignore the slurping sounds of the doggy drinking water under the camera.


TY SO MUCH!!!! Very insightful!

P.S. I -LOVE- your husky!!! It looks dead on like mine!! such good dogs!


She's a sweetie and a dork. My cat is currently bullying her.

Glad I could be of some help.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Two part question: Backfist vs jab, and Karate blocks Reply with quote

The back fist, if properly executed, is NOT a weak jab, no, it's on the contrary. Yes, the hips, legs, and the transitional shift do drive the technique, but it's also the whipping/snapping motion of the back fist that increases the impact. Where the elbow is aiming towards, that is where the fist will contact said target.

The back fist can also strike in a downward motion. Usual targets for that type of back fist is the top of ones head, top of shoulder, and while intercepting either a hand or a foot/knee, as well as to the groin.

You could use either a back fist or a jab whenever the need presents itself; personal desire might decide which one to use over another. If you're more comfortable with one over another, than stick with what one knows. However, lend a lot of time to properly learn and practice the back fist until you're acclimated to it.

"Traditional blocks", imho, aren't going to help you much, if at all, until you are very well versed in them, especially in the venues you're speaking about. To use the right tool, no matter what it is and what it is for, takes plenty of time to learn, understand, and adapt. I'm not saying that "traditional blocks" won't work at all. No. I'm just saying for a MAist that's not well versed in them, success will be quite limited.

For the time, stay with your strongest tool, and then slowly introduce them into your desired venue. As in anything, experience is something that has to be cultivated properly before its fruits can be appreciated and enjoyed.

The only wrong mentality to have while learning is to just give up. Be open and experience for yourself what works and what doesn't work...for YOU!! Until you're more versed in Shotokan, you'll respond more likely in the core that you're most effective with. Having said that, you might not ever be comfortable with Shotokan because your core is your comfort zone, and in that, you know your core much more than you know Shotokan.



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Harkon72
Black Belt
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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I practiced the Uraken in the Dojo tonight, done with a reaction hand it was one of my most powerful techniques.
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kensei
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The back fist strike as demonstrated in the video is weak and not done from a good angle, thus why it is weak. However if you do this as a strike while moving in and target the temple or use it as a strike while pivoting out of the way of an attack its far more accurate than a jab that cam miss also, you have to use movement for the power. Found it very interesting that the Kali/JKD was introduced and really showed a dynamic and open mind...Cudo's!

The traditional blocking, in my experience, is so misunderstood that its not funny, YES it will help you in a encounter and its better than the boxers cover up for a few reasons. First the boxing cover up does not actually cover up with out the gloves, even MMA gloves do not protect you...remember years ago when bouncing a boxer was into it with a door man I was working with and as the much slower bouncer stepped back to swing the other guy did not attempt to block the slow but powerful punch....and got KO'd by a punch I am sure I could redirect any day of the week....near 30 years after I worked the doors.

IO think that the traditional blocks are meant to redirect attacks and not block hard to smash arms..you can do this and it will "disarm" an attacker but you are just as likely to harm yourself.

A drill to explain this is to have a friend perform a cross and you will do a outside block and redirect the punch past you to the side and counter right away...dont stand their kiai'ing like a action movie star...Get it on and hit the guy!

Muay thai and boxing teach great punching and have great conditioning, but they often leave you open if you are getting hit first and then have to counter. Most traditional Muay thai guys I grew up with had a rough blocking technique that was different than what you see in the MMA.

I also punched a MMA guy in the hand one time when he covered up and his flat open hand did little to stop my punch as it smashed into his temple...just meant that his head was not as hurt, but I broke one of the bones in his hand and he drove his head into the steel door frame at the front door...I then turned to judo and tossed him on his head.

No one martial art is perfect, but you have to learn the style as it was meant to be taught, not as the sport part has changed to in the last few decades.
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shadowspawn
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Joined: 09 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Backfists have many different uses depending on what the situation calls for. One of my favorites is a recoil off the chest following a whiffed hook. It often catches people off guard as they try to close the distance after you miss your hook. Because your hand is by your chest, you won't be throwing a jab as quickly as you would a backfist.

Another thing is the angle. Due to the nature of a backfist, it can come at one of three common angles. The most common is parallel to the floor which is probably the most practical one in the sense that there are lots of vital areas that you can hit in the same general area as your primary target. Another comes down at a 45 degree angle to the floor which is mostly used to catch an opponent off guard as it comes in at an angle that you don't see very often. Finally there's the one that comes straight up the middle which you will find in many kata.

All three are comparably weak if used as a standing technique since most of your power is coming from your tricep alone. On the move, that's a different story though. Just as with most other techniques, stepping into your strike and committing your body weight to the strike can turn an otherwise benign technique into a potential knockout.

When it comes down to it, your choice will ultimately depend on where your hand is in comparison to your target. Typically speaking, the jab will be the better choice as the distance is shorter, the return is faster (assuming same level of commitment is put into both strikes), and the technique's execution leaves you less open to counter.

As per traditional blocking, again it's situational. Most traditional blocks are taught as deflections and strikes rather than actual blocks. The problem is that most of them leave a huge opening that an opponent can easily exploit. The most practicable will likely be the outside-inside block that just has you pivot your torso to use your arm to deflect an incoming strike (which could lead to a potential backfist from the angle your arm is at). Most others should be utilized as a strike. The gedan barai for example is one I use to pop a strike out to cause the opponent to overcommit a strike. Most times though, I find it is impractical. You just usually don't have time to sidestep and block. It's usually one of the other.
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cheesefrysamurai
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Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, effective strike.

Its pretty quick to whip out. It doesnt telegraph that much. Its not exactly the strike someone might expect.

Harkon72 wrote:
I practiced the Uraken in the Dojo tonight, done with a reaction hand it was one of my most powerful techniques.

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