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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point on RJJ vs RG is that the event they are in will tell us who is going to win 99% of the time.

What does money have to do with it. Im sure boxers make a lot more espcially the heavyweights but I don't see where you are going with that.

The mat helps both your right but traditional art strikes usually train on wood floors as to where grapplers almost always have a mat or padded floor. Just being used to it.

His first name may have not been Marcus its been a while since I watched him. The black kickboxer that hangs out with Frank Shamrock. Smith is his last name.

Vitor Belfor is a perfect ex of how a good striker can end the fight qucik. Yes I know he is BJJ but he is the best striker in the UFC by far.
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AndrewGreen
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 905
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Styles: Crazy Penguin Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G95champ wrote:
Point on RJJ vs RG is that the event they are in will tell us who is going to win 99% of the time.


RJJ is a far higher level athlete then Royce Gracie.

Rules make the fight, in a no rules environment is the guy that knows how to nulify the other guys techniques that will win. A grappler who trains to take strikers down will most likely beat a striker with little or no grappling.

But the skill level of the individuals in their respective arts makes a BIG difference too.

Quote:

What does money have to do with it. Im sure boxers make a lot more espcially the heavyweights but I don't see where you are going with that.


Lots, everything.

Quote:

The mat helps both your right but traditional art strikes usually train on wood floors as to where grapplers almost always have a mat or padded floor. Just being used to it.


No, it favours the guy on top.

Quote:

His first name may have not been Marcus its been a while since I watched him. The black kickboxer that hangs out with Frank Shamrock. Smith is his last name.


Maurice Smith

Quote:

Vitor Belfor is a perfect ex of how a good striker can end the fight qucik. Yes I know he is BJJ but he is the best striker in the UFC by far.


Vitor BELFORT

If you are going to cite examples its best to actually get the names right.
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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't study them I am doing this off the top of my head.

Would you agree that a striker who knows how to stop a grappler from taking him down is going to beat a true grappler? No question doing both is better but to say one is better than the other is just not fair to either one.
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AndrewGreen
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 905
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Styles: Crazy Penguin Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say one was better then the other.

But I will say that on average grapplers are more familiar with stopping a striker then strikers are with stopping a grappler.
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So then your argument has nothing to do with relative merits of the two approaches and everything to do with a generalization that many strikers don't prepare for the grapple attempt.
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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about that because unless you are traing to fight the other you will be working on what you do. Strikers train with strikers just as grapplers train with grapplers.

I will agree with you that an avg. grappler can take down a striker much more so than an avg. striker can keep a grappler off of him.

Which goes back to my point that IMO only avg. strikers have gotten in the UFC because the rules do not favor them.
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Motion
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 11


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best striker in the early UFC was Keith Hackney the kenpo stylist. His fight with Royce was one of my favorite fights. Another effective use of striking was Marco Ruas who used legs kicks against a bigger opponent.
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TJS
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843

Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been plently of great strikers in the UFC.

Bas Rutten
Maurice Smith
Vitor belfort
Semmy schilt(sp?)
Vandelei Silva
Pedro Rizzo
Mirko "cro Crop" (Pride)




Btw Maurice smith was a pivotal moment becuase he showed a striker could win..he did that by learning how to survive on the ground.

No one is saying Strikers can win...but ot beat grappling you have to know it....

I am a "striker" by trade..Sprawl and brawl all the way..but you can to know grappling to beat it...thats the end of it.

every succesful striker in the UFC has had pretty extensive ground training.

Now you are seeing Strikers KO the grapplers Who's striking isint up to par..They do that by learning how stay on their feet(grappling)
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SupaNinjaz
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 34


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G95Champ, their are many of top class strikers in MMA that have beat top class grapplers and here is a list of them...

- Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic (Muay Thai)
- Vanderlei Silva (Muay Thai/Chute Boxe)
- Bas Rutten (Muay Thai/Kyokushin)
- Duane Ludwig (Muay Thai)
- Marco Ruas (Muay Thai/Vale Tudo)
- Andersen Silva (Muay Thai/Chute Boxe)
- Jose "Pele" Jons (Muay Thai)
- Gilbet Yves (Muay Thai)
- Maurice Smith (Muay Thai/Kickboxing)
- Pedro Rizzo (Muay Thai/Vale Tudo)
- Rob "Razor" McCullough (Muay Thai)
- Murilo "Ninja" Rua (Muay Thai/Chute Boxe)
- Chuck "Iceman" Liddell (Kickboxing)
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MuayThai Fighter
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 303
Location: Vancouver,BC
Styles: MuayThai,Submission Wrestling,Pankration,Karate

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally say it can go either way,some strikers will take a grappler down with no hesistation as seen in UFC.However there are just as many grapplers who can take down a striker which you can also see in UFC.

Neither the striker or grappler is favoured and sometimes the grappler win and sometimes the striker however the true fighters and the ones that usually win are the mixed martial arts styles.

When I say mixed I mean like Muay Thai and Submission Wrestling(also known as Pankration),the Shooto figthers,among a few others.

A traditional artists would never fight in UFC because they are not trained for this kind of stuff and would definitely lose.Their kata stuff wouldn't work in the ring especially against top fighters,also most are used to point sparring,not no holds barred fighting.

Once again the real winners in UFC are the ones who study a mixed martial arts.

What good is stand up fighting without grappling and what good is grappling without some stand up fighting ,to be a well rounded fighter you need both.

Gracies is just one example of a grappler alone winning in general you need both,from the UFC fights I've seen very few stand up fighters and very few grapplers have won unless they knew a bit of both.
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