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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Another thing to keep in mind about what is or is not « gentlemanly » is that different people will have different interpretations and most importantly is that in any given situation whether sport or assault, the other person might not be a “gentleman”.
Rules and fairness or the defenition of what is acceptable only mean something and serve a purpose when they are understood, shared and agreed upon by everyone involved.
It’s only a very special kind of fool who believes everyone in every situation universally shares the same ideas or expects personal rules to apply to others. Doubly so when said fool is in an unfamiliar context with unknown people of unclear and possible shady intentions. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
In the means of survival, there's no such thing as "ungentlemanly like behavior", and as you've already mentioned, all's fair in love and war. My life or his life...I choose my life.
As Bruce Lee put in on a Longstreet Episode..."Aren't we animal?!?" Not only will I bite, I'll do everything and anything that's "ungentlemanly like behavior" to the Nth degree without reservation to defend myself. I'll not feel bad about it when all is said and done.
"No first strike!!" It's a model, and one I value. However, yes, however, I'll not only strike first, but I'll do everything and anything, and I do mean everything and anything to my opponent. Nonetheless, I'll only do what I feel is necessary and nothing more.
Mike Tyson has faced the music for biting Holyfield, but I must say that while what he did wasn't gentlemanly like behavior at all. However, I believe that he did what he did because at that very instant, he went in survival mode the best he knew.
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Nail on the head my friend.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Lupin1 wrote: |
I agree that it depends on the context. For sparring of course you wouldn't learn those things. For self-defense, they're things you have to learn. I'm guessing these things were taught to be used in a self-defense situation.
I would also think the age of the child matters. If the kid is 14, it's perfectly reasonable to be learning these sorts of things. I believe teaching eye gouging to children under 13 is a little much, though. Yes, a young child needs to know how to get away. But a young child also doesn't know what "reasonable force" is and may very well try out that new technique they learned on their friend on the playground. You need to be more careful with what you teach young kids. |
This is part and parcel why I do not teach children. Maturity and knowing when and why you should use certain techniques is a major factor.
I did not ask his child's age but maybe that was his concern as well although he did not express that.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Considerations of being a gentleman only come into play in a sportive competition, not in self-defense. I'm not sure the gentleman you are dealing with is seeing the difference. But, different strokes for different folks. Who knows, maybe after several years of experience, he'll come around to seeing your way of thinking. |
Believe it or not I did not express my views. Since his child is not my student and neither is he I did not think it my place to interject my views on the subject. He didn't ask and I didn't tell.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
What is all this about so-called “ungentlemanly behaviour”. What ought to be made clear with the person concerned in the OP is, as others have said, sportsmanship,rules and fairness belongs in sport. Following that statement, any worthwhile instructor should ask “what do you want, sport or defense?”
Lastly it is not how one uses force or where it is applied that makes a “gentleman”. It is that a gentleman ought to know that he must never draw his sword unless it is in defense of himself, those dear to him or his land. No good ever came from confusing sport for war or war for sport. |
Love your views! Your a man after my own heart. I couldn't agree more.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
They're desperation techniques used (not surprisingly) by desperate people.
Its not the technique your throwing so much as the position you're attempting to throw it from. Take a punch for example: Throw it from on top of someone it does damage. Throw it from the bottom and its laughably ineffective. The same goes for all these eye gouges and bites, throat rips, and what have you else. If you're not in a good position you don't have good leverage- therefore your attack is going to be quite weak.
Most of the people teaching them haven't even done them. What this is an attempt to do is make a claim unfalsifiable. For example, let me get out of a choke by biting or eye gouging- I promise you it wont work- I've lost count of people trying to do that to me when I choke them- the biggest concern is losing control because I'm laughing so hard. So when you ask these people to prove what they're showing they back track and say "oh this is for real stuff, not sport." This leaves them the perfect scenario where they can make a grand claim ("defend yourself from X!) and never have to back it up- and people still believe them....
So in short I'd pull people I cared about out of that class, and my response when asked would be "You don't seem to be educated enough to teach this stuff...." |
Although I understand and sadly know where you are coming from due to those that do not understand how and when to use certain techniques I do not agree that, what most now days call self defense techniques, do not work.
It depends on your knowledge of the techniques, how to apply them, when to apply them and against what technique to apply them.
I have used what some would call dirty fighting techniques in real situations and I can promise you that they work. Back in my youthful rowdy Marine Corps days they have gotten me out of sticky situations in bar fights. And to your point there are things that work to get loose from a choke.
What you're speaking about is really a point of what the attackers pain tolerance is and how mentally intent he is on executing the technique. In this case a simple bite or eye gouge may not work but this is only listing the most basic dirty fighting tactics.
Not arguing with your point because I understand that their are less than qualified people teaching less than effective techniques but this does not encompass every teacher, art or technique.
Just my 2 cents.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
Fighting in general is ungentlemanly. The idea of rules for duels and what not was always preposterous to me; they always seemed to be rigged to the favor of the wealthy (poor folks never had time to train with swords or pistols.)
Don't like ungentlemanly behavior? Don't fight.
And for what it's worth, I don't count sport fighting as fighting - it's entirely voluntarily on both parties; typically subject to rules, etc. |
Good points.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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There’s a time and a place for everything. Some times call for simply smacking someone and letting them run off crying. Other times call for stomping someone while they’re down with everything you have. And everything in between.
Ungentlemanly behavior? Attacking me and anyone I care about (or even a random stranger in the right context) is “ungentlemanly” IMO. I’ll see there ungentlemanliness and raise them. Meet force with a little more than equal force IMO.
There’s a saying I’ve heard a few times - if I’m going to die in a shootout, there’s definitely not going to be any bullets left in my gun. I’m not going to hold back using anything because some consider it “dirty” or “ungentlemanly.” I’m going to do whatever it takes to end the threat, be it peacefully or not if need be. |
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 727
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am Post subject: |
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People have died from one punch, king hit or otherwise, there are no rules when it comes to surviving an attack. Whose to say that while you are lying unconscious on the ground that this aggressor isn't going to stomp you to death?
No rules, you do what you have to to neutralize the attack as quickly as you can and be ready for his mates that will come next.
Krav Maga comes to mind...........
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"We don't have any money, so we will have to think" - Ernest Rutherford |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
They're desperation techniques used (not surprisingly) by desperate people.
Its not the technique your throwing so much as the position you're attempting to throw it from. Take a punch for example: Throw it from on top of someone it does damage. Throw it from the bottom and its laughably ineffective. The same goes for all these eye gouges and bites, throat rips, and what have you else. If you're not in a good position you don't have good leverage- therefore your attack is going to be quite weak.
Most of the people teaching them haven't even done them. What this is an attempt to do is make a claim unfalsifiable. For example, let me get out of a choke by biting or eye gouging- I promise you it wont work- I've lost count of people trying to do that to me when I choke them- the biggest concern is losing control because I'm laughing so hard. So when you ask these people to prove what they're showing they back track and say "oh this is for real stuff, not sport." This leaves them the perfect scenario where they can make a grand claim ("defend yourself from X!) and never have to back it up- and people still believe them....
So in short I'd pull people I cared about out of that class, and my response when asked would be "You don't seem to be educated enough to teach this stuff...." |
Although I understand and sadly know where you are coming from due to those that do not understand how and when to use certain techniques I do not agree that, what most now days call self defense techniques, do not work.
It depends on your knowledge of the techniques, how to apply them, when to apply them and against what technique to apply them.
I have used what some would call dirty fighting techniques in real situations and I can promise you that they work. Back in my youthful rowdy Marine Corps days they have gotten me out of sticky situations in bar fights. And to your point there are things that work to get loose from a choke.
What you're speaking about is really a point of what the attackers pain tolerance is and how mentally intent he is on executing the technique. In this case a simple bite or eye gouge may not work but this is only listing the most basic dirty fighting tactics.
Not arguing with your point because I understand that their are less than qualified people teaching less than effective techniques but this does not encompass every teacher, art or technique.
Just my 2 cents. |
I really need to try and train with you at some point Matsu. Because my experience has been similar to TJ's on this.
I don't think anyone is saying that such techniques don't/can't work, what we are saying is that:
1. Such techniques are not the world beating force multipliers that they are often made out to be by people who have never fought with contact before.
2. If you are in a bad position, particularly in grappling range, such techniques will not work as a substitute for a structural escape against anyone with even a modicum of training.
It's not that, for example, if I am grabbed from behind, a groin strike absolutely WON't work, because of course it might, it's that my time to react is limited, and I would rather do something structural, that I have practiced thousands of times against real resistance, that I KNOW will work.
Most people vastly underestimate the effects of adrenal stress response on male combative ability, and they don't realize that someones response to a painful stimulus may not be to let go, it may be to squeeze harder.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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on the post.
