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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Using Martial Arts in Self Defense Reply with quote

Lets say you train in a martial art, or multiple martial arts. If you're ever in the situation where you use it in self defense you don't really use it. You do but you don't. You don't say to yourself "Im going to use Karate," or "Im going to use Jiu Jitsu," or "Im going to use Miai Thai," or whatever. You just do whatever works best in the situation. You don't think about using a Karate Front Kick or Reverse Punch, sure you might end up using such techniques and they might be very effective in the given situation but you don't think about it. So this is what I consider a key to being effective with martial arts in self defense, if you're in a self defense situation don't think about using Karate or whatever other art, just do what comes to you without thinking.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Using Martial Arts in Self Defense Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
Lets say you train in a martial art, or multiple martial arts. If you're ever in the situation where you use it in self defense you don't really use it. You do but you don't. You don't say to yourself "Im going to use Karate," or "Im going to use Jiu Jitsu," or "Im going to use Miai Thai," or whatever. You just do whatever works best in the situation. You don't think about using a Karate Front Kick or Reverse Punch, sure you might end up using such techniques and they might be very effective in the given situation but you don't think about it. So this is what I consider a key to being effective with martial arts in self defense, if you're in a self defense situation don't think about using Karate or whatever other art, just do what comes to you without thinking.


That's the whole point. Martial arts are dirty. They tend to start off with strict clear rules. You do this technique from this stance, you turn like this, etc etc. But all that is just muscle development and balance and coordination, and core principles. As you progress you realise that all of the earlier training was just about making you physically more able to move freely while fighting dirty.

I can't say if that's true of the sports oriented styles because that's not my thing. But certainly in traditional martial arts its all about training efficiency of movement and coordinated power delivery that integrates well with our inherent monkey behaviour.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 957
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We train to strike the vitals - eyes, nose, throat, temple, groin, knees, as well as other pressure points. Hap Ki Do is also blended in our style of Tae Kwon Do from the white belt level on, so for us, it's not really "I'm gonna use HKD instead of TKD." We are trained to react. As a green belt, I'm really only supposed to use TKD when sparring, for now. But as my training advances, HKD is expected to be used when appropriate during sparring. (That being said, some of my instructors still put me in choke holds or throw me down if I make mistakes!)

That being said, I've never had to use it, and I hope that trend continues!
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14145
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Using Martial Arts in Self Defense Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
Lets say you train in a martial art, or multiple martial arts. If you're ever in the situation where you use it in self defense you don't really use it. You do but you don't. You don't say to yourself "Im going to use Karate," or "Im going to use Jiu Jitsu," or "Im going to use Miai Thai," or whatever. You just do whatever works best in the situation. You don't think about using a Karate Front Kick or Reverse Punch, sure you might end up using such techniques and they might be very effective in the given situation but you don't think about it. So this is what I consider a key to being effective with martial arts in self defense, if you're in a self defense situation don't think about using Karate or whatever other art, just do what comes to you without thinking.

The usage of the MA, in time, becomes automatic; without thought.

Therefore...

"I do not hit, 'it' hits all by itself!!" ~ Bruce Lee





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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1673

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What works in self defense is whatever comes spontaneously. Usually this is the simplest and most basic techniques that one has practised most often. The goal of training any technique is to make it automatic. It must be so ingrained that one just reacts to an attack.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone reverts to their training in conflict.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
Everyone reverts to their training in conflict.


With respect, that's not true.

People may do as they've trained, if they've trained to the extent that it's now natural.

In our style, we have a very awesomely powerful kick, which I believe our taekwondo brethren call a tornado kick. It's a great show kick. I'm told it even sometimes works in the sanitised environment of competition. But if someone tries to shake me down for my money in a violent encounter, there's no way I'm going to chance spinning and jumping to throw a kick knowing that if any tiny thing goes wrong I'm getting my head kicked in.

Fighting in self defence happens in a primitive part of the brain. Higher consciousness barely gets a look in. So to fight as you've trained means your training has to be repetitive enough and simple enough to get right down and embed itself in the monkey part of the brain.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Everyone reverts to their training in conflict.


With respect, that's not true.

People may do as they've trained, if they've trained to the extent that it's now natural.

In our style, we have a very awesomely powerful kick, which I believe our taekwondo brethren call a tornado kick. It's a great show kick. I'm told it even sometimes works in the sanitised environment of competition. But if someone tries to shake me down for my money in a violent encounter, there's no way I'm going to chance spinning and jumping to throw a kick knowing that if any tiny thing goes wrong I'm getting my head kicked in.

Fighting in self defence happens in a primitive part of the brain. Higher consciousness barely gets a look in. So to fight as you've trained means your training has to be repetitive enough and simple enough to get right down and embed itself in the monkey part of the brain.


Or stressful enough that the mental and physical environment of a real violent encounter is one in which you can think a bit more clearly than most.
This is the route we take in Judo and BJJ. A lot of what we do is comparatively complex, but once you have experience doing it against real resistance and in competition, it provides a sort of physical and mental analgesic to the environment that is physical violence.

LLEARNER's quote is true in context. If the training is of sufficient quality and quantity to provide what is known as operant conditioning, then yes, people will revert to it. They will, under maximum stress, see a stimulus and react to it before the thinking, reasoning part of the brain has a chance to process further details.

The issue is, the vast majority of martial arts training in the US at least, does not contain the elements needed for operant conditioning.
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darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Everyone reverts to their training in conflict.


With respect, that's not true.

People may do as they've trained, if they've trained to the extent that it's now natural.

In our style, we have a very awesomely powerful kick, which I believe our taekwondo brethren call a tornado kick. It's a great show kick. I'm told it even sometimes works in the sanitised environment of competition. But if someone tries to shake me down for my money in a violent encounter, there's no way I'm going to chance spinning and jumping to throw a kick knowing that if any tiny thing goes wrong I'm getting my head kicked in.

Fighting in self defence happens in a primitive part of the brain. Higher consciousness barely gets a look in. So to fight as you've trained means your training has to be repetitive enough and simple enough to get right down and embed itself in the monkey part of the brain.


Or stressful enough that the mental and physical environment of a real violent encounter is one in which you can think a bit more clearly than most.
This is the route we take in Judo and BJJ. A lot of what we do is comparatively complex, but once you have experience doing it against real resistance and in competition, it provides a sort of physical and mental analgesic to the environment that is physical violence.

LLEARNER's quote is true in context. If the training is of sufficient quality and quantity to provide what is known as operant conditioning, then yes, people will revert to it. They will, under maximum stress, see a stimulus and react to it before the thinking, reasoning part of the brain has a chance to process further details.

The issue is, the vast majority of martial arts training in the US at least, does not contain the elements needed for operant conditioning.


I kind of hear what you're saying.

In our style, we only spar at about 50% force, and with fairly strict rules. So it's not like a real fight at all. But a trained martial artist trying to punch and kick you repeatedly for 3 minutes is certainly enough to get the adrenaline going, even when you know you won't get really hurt (unless you have a rare accident). And when you know you can hold your own against someone that knows what they're doing, and having been punched and kicked many times (nobody can block or dodge every incoming) you learn that you can still maintain your composure after being walloped.

In that respect I agree that certainly training will come into play. That and the physical endurance and balance and all the other myriad benefits of training. But my point was that you won't necessarily do what you've trained to do, if for example you've only ever practiced softly softly against a cooperative training partner that allows you to put on a highly convoluted technique.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Everyone reverts to their training in conflict.


With respect, that's not true.

People may do as they've trained, if they've trained to the extent that it's now natural.

In our style, we have a very awesomely powerful kick, which I believe our taekwondo brethren call a tornado kick. It's a great show kick. I'm told it even sometimes works in the sanitised environment of competition. But if someone tries to shake me down for my money in a violent encounter, there's no way I'm going to chance spinning and jumping to throw a kick knowing that if any tiny thing goes wrong I'm getting my head kicked in.

Fighting in self defence happens in a primitive part of the brain. Higher consciousness barely gets a look in. So to fight as you've trained means your training has to be repetitive enough and simple enough to get right down and embed itself in the monkey part of the brain.


Or stressful enough that the mental and physical environment of a real violent encounter is one in which you can think a bit more clearly than most.
This is the route we take in Judo and BJJ. A lot of what we do is comparatively complex, but once you have experience doing it against real resistance and in competition, it provides a sort of physical and mental analgesic to the environment that is physical violence.

LLEARNER's quote is true in context. If the training is of sufficient quality and quantity to provide what is known as operant conditioning, then yes, people will revert to it. They will, under maximum stress, see a stimulus and react to it before the thinking, reasoning part of the brain has a chance to process further details.

The issue is, the vast majority of martial arts training in the US at least, does not contain the elements needed for operant conditioning.


I kind of hear what you're saying.

In our style, we only spar at about 50% force, and with fairly strict rules. So it's not like a real fight at all. But a trained martial artist trying to punch and kick you repeatedly for 3 minutes is certainly enough to get the adrenaline going, even when you know you won't get really hurt (unless you have a rare accident). And when you know you can hold your own against someone that knows what they're doing, and having been punched and kicked many times (nobody can block or dodge every incoming) you learn that you can still maintain your composure after being walloped.

In that respect I agree that certainly training will come into play. That and the physical endurance and balance and all the other myriad benefits of training. But my point was that you won't necessarily do what you've trained to do, if for example you've only ever practiced softly softly against a cooperative training partner that allows you to put on a highly convoluted technique.


Of course. Adrenal decay is a real thing. And the sharper the learning curve, the more the decay.
If you have never experienced lizard brain heart-rate levels and adrenal stress response before, you will not react well the first time it happens to you.
That is why actual training for self defense involves some sportive aspects to it.
If you don't have the experience of being so hyped up your brain and body fail to follow your instructions or your training, then the first place you DON'T want to get it is a self defense situation. MUCH better to experience it at a major tournament first.
Especially if full speed is an option. Kyokushin, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ... All of those styles have that full speed component, especially in competition.
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darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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