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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6148
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been said, stances are transitional positions but I think more importantly teach how to transition between positions. It's about weight management.

Might find this interesting: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/the-stances-of-karate-form-function-and-footprints/
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mushybees
Orange Belt
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 198
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is almost identical to the question you asked about using martial arts in self defense.

You don't "use" stances in a fight. The stances you practise in your art will, over time, affect the way you move.
At any time you may recognise your posture as what we call a stance but it's incidental. Through training you will instinctively manage your posture for the most appropriate and efficent way of dealing with a given situation.
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I agree with your point. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.

You're partially right. You do want to train with methods and techniques that you would use should you ever be in a real fight but at the same time there are certain training methods and techniques that you would not use in a real fight but are nonetheless good training methods to help you be better in a fight. Two examples would be katas and high kicks.

With katas, if you ever do get in a real fight you're certainly not going to start doing your kata but katas do teach you certain patterns of movement and combinations of techniques that can be very effective in a real fight.

With high kicks, kicking to the head level of a standing opponent, those look great in the movies and for show but they're not usually effective in a real fight and you might never use them in real fights, but it can still be good to train with high kicks since by doing so it helps develop strength, speed, control, coordination, and power that would transition to the low and mid range kicks that you would use in a real fight.
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XtremeTrainer
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Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mushybees wrote:
This is almost identical to the question you asked about using martial arts in self defense.

It is closely related to the thread I started about using martial arts in self defense but its more specialized in that its more about stances. The main reason I started this new thread instead of add on to the first thread was because the first thread has seemed to dry up, where Im not getting any more responses.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
.

With high kicks, kicking to the head level of a standing opponent, those look great in the movies and for show but they're not usually effective in a real fight and you might never use them in real fights, but it can still be good to train with high kicks since by doing so it helps develop strength, speed, control, coordination, and power that would transition to the low and mid range kicks that you would use in a real fight.


I totally agree. But with a slight caveat.

If you Only train high kicks, then muscle memory makes it surprisingly difficult to do a low kick.

To explain what I mean, in our tang soo do, we are told all kicks should be a minimum of belt height. The higher the better. Our instructor gives the same explanation as you, in essence that if you can kick high, you can kick low. I did a stint in another club for a whole that was more closer to MMA. The instructor held a kick shield to his knee and asked me to practice taking his leg out. The first few attempts, I aimed lower than I was used to, but still nearly took out his gonads. I found it night on impossible to fire a kick that low because my brain was saying I was aiming at the floor, because I was so used to kicking high.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference between stances in class and "stances" in a real fight is that in class the stances are intentional, whereas in a real fight they are reactionary to some degree. To clarify - you never find yourself 100% of the time in a traditional stance. What happens if your twisted, which happens a lot while grappling or in a clinch. What happens if your opponent steps to an odd angle and you have to match him, are you instantly in a traditional stance?

We utilize natural stances but do not get hung up on always being in a perfect stance because in real life you rarely are. You should practice striking while in movement (not always in a text book perfect stance because odds are you won't be). Real fights are violent and often there is more pressure and close fighting than in training. As such deep text book stances go out the window first because they are not practical for the application.

To get hung up on this stance or that is faulty in terms of a real fight because you rarely have the time to get into a perfect stance as the stance (foot placement) is dictated by the action and circumstance.
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
I totally agree. But with a slight caveat.

If you Only train high kicks, then muscle memory makes it surprisingly difficult to do a low kick.

To explain what I mean, in our tang soo do, we are told all kicks should be a minimum of belt height. The higher the better. Our instructor gives the same explanation as you, in essence that if you can kick high, you can kick low. I did a stint in another club for a whole that was more closer to MMA. The instructor held a kick shield to his knee and asked me to practice taking his leg out. The first few attempts, I aimed lower than I was used to, but still nearly took out his gonads. I found it night on impossible to fire a kick that low because my brain was saying I was aiming at the floor, because I was so used to kicking high.

I see. I've never been an exclusively high kicker so I've never experienced that myself but if you've ever seen videos of Chloe Bruce, I would say over 99% of her kicks are high kicks where they're at head level or higher. Very rarely have I ever seen her throw even a mid level kick. I wonder how she would be at low kicks, if she's just too used to kicking high to be good at low kicks.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
I totally agree. But with a slight caveat.

If you Only train high kicks, then muscle memory makes it surprisingly difficult to do a low kick.

To explain what I mean, in our tang soo do, we are told all kicks should be a minimum of belt height. The higher the better. Our instructor gives the same explanation as you, in essence that if you can kick high, you can kick low. I did a stint in another club for a whole that was more closer to MMA. The instructor held a kick shield to his knee and asked me to practice taking his leg out. The first few attempts, I aimed lower than I was used to, but still nearly took out his gonads. I found it night on impossible to fire a kick that low because my brain was saying I was aiming at the floor, because I was so used to kicking high.

I see. I've never been an exclusively high kicker so I've never experienced that myself but if you've ever seen videos of Chloe Bruce, I would say over 99% of her kicks are high kicks where they're at head level or higher. Very rarely have I ever seen her throw even a mid level kick. I wonder how she would be at low kicks, if she's just too used to kicking high to be good at low kicks.


Chloe and her little sister Grace are excellent performing artists. I believe both have had roles as stunt doubles in martial arts movies. I'm not sure how effective they'd be in a real situation though. I've only ever seen them demonstrating choreographed displays. That's not in any way to put them down. Both are vastly more skilled than I am.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14405
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
The difference between stances in class and "stances" in a real fight is that in class the stances are intentional, whereas in a real fight they are reactionary to some degree. To clarify - you never find yourself 100% of the time in a traditional stance. What happens if your twisted, which happens a lot while grappling or in a clinch. What happens if your opponent steps to an odd angle and you have to match him, are you instantly in a traditional stance?

We utilize natural stances but do not get hung up on always being in a perfect stance because in real life you rarely are. You should practice striking while in movement (not always in a text book perfect stance because odds are you won't be). Real fights are violent and often there is more pressure and close fighting than in training. As such deep text book stances go out the window first because they are not practical for the application.

To get hung up on this stance or that is faulty in terms of a real fight because you rarely have the time to get into a perfect stance as the stance (foot placement) is dictated by the action and circumstance.

Solid post!!



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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I agree with your point. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.

You're partially right. You do want to train with methods and techniques that you would use should you ever be in a real fight but at the same time there are certain training methods and techniques that you would not use in a real fight but are nonetheless good training methods to help you be better in a fight. Two examples would be katas and high kicks.

With katas, if you ever do get in a real fight you're certainly not going to start doing your kata but katas do teach you certain patterns of movement and combinations of techniques that can be very effective in a real fight.


IMHO yes and no. Yes they do teach movements that are relevant and also the combinations of techniques do help train the muscle memory and can be helpful in a fight. However I do not personally agree that this is all that Kata contains that is beneficial in a fight. These things are superficial and do not speak to the core of the Kata. The applications combined with two man drills teach the combat techniques and instill muscle memory. I will not state that they have the answers to every type of attack but will say that they teach you more than enough to adapt to a given attack and provide enough tools to counter and overcome.

XtremeTrainer wrote:
With high kicks, kicking to the head level of a standing opponent, those look great in the movies and for show but they're not usually effective in a real fight and you might never use them in real fights, but it can still be good to train with high kicks since by doing so it helps develop strength, speed, control, coordination, and power that would transition to the low and mid range kicks that you would use in a real fight.


I agree with you in terms of high kicks in a real fight. I also agree with you in terms of benefits although we do not use them in training. I however have trained in arts that utilize chest and head level kicks and in terms of flexibility and even execution in some terms, I think they have there place. Having said that we do not utilize them for multiple reasons.
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