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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Using TMA Stances in "Real Fights" Reply with quote

In a previous thread I started I talked about how you don't use martial arts in real self defense situations. "You do but you don't," which means that you might use various martial arts techniques in self defense situations but you do so without thinking about it and without planning to. Its been talked about in the thread, you just go by what works best in the situation and what you've developed into muscle memory.

As such Im wondering what the use of TMA stances in "real fights" would be. TMA stances are great for training but in a "real fight," in a street confrontation, a self defense situation, what would their uses be? When expecting trouble or when faced with a condition where you would use self defense you wouldn't drop into a TMA stance but that's not to say you might not sometimes use TMA stances in such situations.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
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Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

During a fight, you resort to your base level of training. If you train to the point of second nature, then you will find your stances transfer to self-defense. They might not be perfect, but they will be there.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We often train stances fairly statically and rigidly, almost as if they are a thing in and of themselves.

But clearly they are not. Go to a tai chi class and this becomes obvious at lesson 1. In our tang soo do club, that tends to be kept fairly quiet until higher grades.

So what are stances if not a thing in their own right?

Stances are positions we move through while moving. They train us to develop good legs and balance and to get used to being in positions that naturally offer free movement, stability, a good launch platform for our techniques, and a naturally good defense.

Stances develop principles, not techniques.

Think about a long rigid front stance. Seems utterly pointless. Too rigid to move from easily. So why drill it til it becomes natural? What if your assailant begins the assault by pushing you backwards when you're not even expecting it, you are totally caught by surprise. The shock might make some people tense up, and adrenaline drives us to push ourselves up to make ourselves look bigger (built in primal response). Basically we go off balance and if we don't fall, we at least take a few uncoordinated backwards steps to regain our balance, before immediately making ourselves big and rigid and clumsy again. The person who has drilled front stance on the other hand is more likely to sink at the hips, allow the legs to absorb the shock with one leg back to regain balance, and is much better prepared for whatever happens next.

In our style, our fighting stance is like a cat stance. The front foot barely touches the ground. All weight on the back foot. Again useless. But it teaches us to be relaxed and fluid as we move.

Horse riding stance, again pointless. Except and very close range you might pass through horse stance while grappling or throwing.

I could go on. But my point is simply that if we train good stances, then we'll develop the muscles and the reflexes to move fluidly and with good balance, speed and stability.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Using TMA Stances in "Real Fights" Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
In a previous thread I started I talked about how you don't use martial arts in real self defense situations. "You do but you don't," which means that you might use various martial arts techniques in self defense situations but you do so without thinking about it and without planning to. Its been talked about in the thread, you just go by what works best in the situation and what you've developed into muscle memory.

As such Im wondering what the use of TMA stances in "real fights" would be. TMA stances are great for training but in a "real fight," in a street confrontation, a self defense situation, what would their uses be? When expecting trouble or when faced with a condition where you would use self defense you wouldn't drop into a TMA stance but that's not to say you might not sometimes use TMA stances in such situations.


If your speaking in terms of natural stances - then yes they work in a real fight. You can transition quickly while maintaining your balance. In terms of more modern (deep and wide) stances - I would say no. Transitions are effected and are slower and although you have possibly a better base the opponent has the advantage as you are deeper and the base can be broken as you tend to be planted.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
During a fight, you resort to your base level of training. If you train to the point of second nature, then you will find your stances transfer to self-defense. They might not be perfect, but they will be there.


I agree with your point. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27757
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stances are supposed to be transitional in nature, and not static the way we often train them, or at least how we look at them. If you're looking at executing a trip or a standing sweep, then you might extend your back leg straight back and pivot to pull them over it; like stepping into a front stance. There are other examples out there, but this one makes the point, I think.

Take throwing a reverse punch as another example. If you throw it in class from a front stance, you are working on getting the hips to drive the punch. You may not go into a full front stance in self-defense, but if you snap your hips forwards when delivering the punch, then training that stance has served its purpose.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um... I've never heard of a TMA stance. What is it?
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mushybees
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014
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Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traditional Martial Arts.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
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Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mushybees wrote:
Traditional Martial Arts.


I kinda thought that... And now I feel dumb! Well... public humiliation builds character!

Now to answer the question: I don't think most TMAs are all that practical. Our stances are really long and low when doing forms. When sparring, we take a "fighting stance" which is much more natural.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2431
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference between "fighting" or a "fighting stance" and the way that traditional arts are intended to be used
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