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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15804
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aodhan wrote:
Bryan Sensei wrote:
In my opinion any school that makes you sign a yearly or "so called lifetime member "contracks is particularly foolish .Especially when it comes to kids,because kids lose interests very fast and once you or your kids lose interests your still on the hook for the contract.And as others have stated anymore than about $60 to $75 per month for martial arts is also plain foolishness.Teachers who change large amounts of money for lessons are more interested in money than promoting the art or love for the art.


Teachers generally charge what the market will bear. Hopefully that's enough to feed their family, pay the rent and keep the lights on in the studio. When you're paying $3 per square foot for a 1500 square foot facility, that's $4500 a month just for the space. That's before equipment, electricity, AC and oh, yeah, putting food on the table.

Contracts are also not an evil thing. They allow an instructor to set a budget, and plan for their projected gross income level, rather than wondering month to month if students are going to show up again. Yeah, kids change their minds, but then it's up to the teacher and parents to engage them again.

Now, I tend to agree that anything more than a year contract is a bit excessive, although I can see two year contracts. Anything more than that I might be leery of.

And what do you expect for your "$60 to 75" a month? How many classes? Two a week? That's 8 classes, so lets say they are charging the exorbitant amount of $80 a month. That's $10 an hour, do you really think that's a realistic pay rate? Consider the amount of time you have in training for your job, would you work for $10 an hour?

John

Solid post and right on the money for Business 101, and in that, the MA IS a business and must be treated as such...or...there's no way to pay for the NEEDS of said commercial MA school. This, imho, isn't a bad thing unless ignored completely.


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1Weedhopper
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 14
Location: Roanoke Rapids, NC
Styles: Shito-ryu, Hakko Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, Tai Chi Chuan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would ask around and do your research of the area. Sometimes the best instructors are not even commercially listed in the phone book. Thats how I found my first Sensei. I was working at the golf course and was talking with him and he said he had trained and would teach me if I really wanted to learn. He only charged $30 dollars a month for two days every week. He was old school and trained me hard. A lot of days I questioned wether or not to go to class because I knew he was going to put me in some pain. But with that kind of training you learn that it really works and is practical. McDojo's will not push you like that. The guy I just found this week only charges $5 dollars a night. Both of these guys have dojo's built next to their house. I wish you the best finding one that will teach you right
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mal103
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best training you will ever get is to end the night in a soaked Gi, a few bruises and only a few quid/dollars lighter. The "Sensei" would have had as much fun training/teaching you that you had learning/teaching them.

I have 25 odd students, most are wanting to be the next Bruce Lee with no effort, some are just waiting for their excuse to give up but the few left are worth all the effort in teaching and will be life long students of the arts and better people, they will teach me and inspire me to show them what I have learnt so far.

Keep looking, a good Shotokan school would be my recommend, but only if they step outside the box - seek what your past masters sought and don't just replicate there standard syllabus.
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1Weedhopper
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 14
Location: Roanoke Rapids, NC
Styles: Shito-ryu, Hakko Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, Tai Chi Chuan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with mal103. You need to be pushed to exhaustion when you train. One thing I will never forget that I was taught was that the way you train is the way you will fight. If you just go through the motions and barely break a sweat then when you have to fight you will not know how to flip the switch. But if you are used to throwing every punch and kick as if you were punching through a concrete wall then when you have to fight it will be easy to do the same because thats all you know. Also if you are not getting sufficient conditioning (aka geating beat on) then you will not know how to deal with getting hit in a fight. But if you are getting hit on in class then when you get hit in a fight it want be so bad. You will have built up that tolerance and endurance for pain.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree, as I posted on the Karate thread; the harder you go in training the easier the fight will be when it matters. Your Spirit will carry you further than your Mind knows. A good Sensei can measure the effort he needs from you, they know your limit and your mental barriers; beyond these is where the true Art begins.
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guird
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MMA place seems very expensive, I get access to 15 different martial arts and unlimited fitness centre access for a full year for that price.

not that the others you mentioned are much cheaper.
if money is no object I'd go for the MMA gym, you'll learn a balanced fighting method, and though it's a lot a month it's still more options and more hours for your money than the others. Plus, MMA gyms are like pizza, even when they're bad, they're still pretty good.

Kyokushin is also pretty unlikely to be bad. If they fight full-contact like other kyokushin gyms, any training there will give you a sizeable advantage over average joe.

As for bjj, you should study it (or maybe judo) at some point in your MA journey, you never know what kind of situation you might end up defending yourself in, so you need to have at least a basic understanding of the groundwork/grappling aspects of combat. you don't need to start there though.

Also, are you looking for something more competition-directed, self-defense directed, or performance directed? something more traditional or modern? something adrenaline-fueled or with a calmer, zen-like atmosphere.
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tamaro
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 22 Apr 2014
Posts: 22


PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: tips Reply with quote

From what I understood there are two main things one should consider:
1) It's your starting martial art
2) You want martial arts for self-defense and not sport


From combination of 1) and 2) I would say you should either choose a striking art (wadoryu karate, shotokan, muay thai, sanda, etc) or mixed art (mma, japanese or german jujutsu, sambo, krav maga, etc) first, instead of a grappling art. Grappling is essential in 1 on 1 fights, but schools that focus alone on grappling techniques aren't too proper for self-defense scenarios because of the reason you correctly pointed.

From 2) alone I'd say you look for a martial art that's not too focused on sport combat with too many limitations and that keeps it real. Kyokushin training is really though, but the sparring doesn't involve striking with hands to the face, which is perhaps the worse thing you can do to distance your training from self-defense reality.

-> Krav maga is likely the best choice you can possibly make, considering you objectives. Other than that, martial arts that focus on self-defense, but don't neglect the importance of sparring are what you need.


As for contracts. I would never get into 1 year contracts. Imagine after a few lessons you notice the instructor sucks? A good instructor won't try to make you sign such a contract after watching just one lesson. To me, that seems to be the action of someone who needs to find a business strategy to compensate his lack of instruction quality.

Leaving you with tips I generally give to people looking to start in martial arts (hope you find them useful):

1) Choose a school where there are a lot of older students (in age and grade). That usually means the instructor is a nice, honest person. Otherwise, people wouldn't be around him for too long.

2) Look at the best student, learn how much time it took him to get his current skill and think whether that's something you find impressive. If so, that usually means training quality is within your expectations.

3) If you see a lot of children with black belt running around, I recommend staying alert to any unfair commercial practices by the school owner. Most academies will charge students some sort of grading fee. Since many academies are businesses, faster grading through lower grading standards will result in more profit. This incorrect practice is the main reason for an academy to prematurely grade underage students to black belt.

4) See as many as 6 training sessions. Just one session is never enough to know if the instruction has the necessary quality.

5) If you see a high percentage of injured students training, stay away from that place! A good Instructor understands the importance of safety in physical training and should have the knowledge to keep a low injury rate at his academy.

6) A good instructor doesn't train while teaching. He dedicates all his attention in helping his students.

7) An instructor without any physical condition may also be a sign of a school that stopped its evolution the day his/her instructor stopped training.

An Instructor should have the required certification and follow the country's regulations for sport/martial arts practice.

9) Martial arts training should have realistic self-defense training. Stay away from crazy fairyland schools where the instructor teaches white belts on how to disarm a gun from 2 meters away...


Good luck.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15804
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: tips Reply with quote

tamaro wrote:
From what I understood there are two main things one should consider:
1) It's your starting martial art
2) You want martial arts for self-defense and not sport


From combination of 1) and 2) I would say you should either choose a striking art (wadoryu karate, shotokan, muay thai, sanda, etc) or mixed art (mma, japanese or german jujutsu, sambo, krav maga, etc) first, instead of a grappling art. Grappling is essential in 1 on 1 fights, but schools that focus alone on grappling techniques aren't too proper for self-defense scenarios because of the reason you correctly pointed.

From 2) alone I'd say you look for a martial art that's not too focused on sport combat with too many limitations and that keeps it real. Kyokushin training is really though, but the sparring doesn't involve striking with hands to the face, which is perhaps the worse thing you can do to distance your training from self-defense reality.

-> Krav maga is likely the best choice you can possibly make, considering you objectives. Other than that, martial arts that focus on self-defense, but don't neglect the importance of sparring are what you need.


As for contracts. I would never get into 1 year contracts. Imagine after a few lessons you notice the instructor sucks? A good instructor won't try to make you sign such a contract after watching just one lesson. To me, that seems to be the action of someone who needs to find a business strategy to compensate his lack of instruction quality.

Leaving you with tips I generally give to people looking to start in martial arts (hope you find them useful):

1) Choose a school where there are a lot of older students (in age and grade). That usually means the instructor is a nice, honest person. Otherwise, people wouldn't be around him for too long.

2) Look at the best student, learn how much time it took him to get his current skill and think whether that's something you find impressive. If so, that usually means training quality is within your expectations.

3) If you see a lot of children with black belt running around, I recommend staying alert to any unfair commercial practices by the school owner. Most academies will charge students some sort of grading fee. Since many academies are businesses, faster grading through lower grading standards will result in more profit. This incorrect practice is the main reason for an academy to prematurely grade underage students to black belt.

4) See as many as 6 training sessions. Just one session is never enough to know if the instruction has the necessary quality.

5) If you see a high percentage of injured students training, stay away from that place! A good Instructor understands the importance of safety in physical training and should have the knowledge to keep a low injury rate at his academy.

6) A good instructor doesn't train while teaching. He dedicates all his attention in helping his students.

7) An instructor without any physical condition may also be a sign of a school that stopped its evolution the day his/her instructor stopped training.

An Instructor should have the required certification and follow the country's regulations for sport/martial arts practice.

9) Martial arts training should have realistic self-defense training. Stay away from crazy fairyland schools where the instructor teaches white belts on how to disarm a gun from 2 meters away...


Good luck.

First of all....Welcome to KF!! Glad that you're here!!

Secondly, Solid post!!



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tamaro
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 22 Apr 2014
Posts: 22


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29367
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are grappling schools out there that might have a self-defense focus, and could provide good self-defense training. There are grappling schools out there that will focus on improving position and getting out of a situation, which is great training if you wind up on the ground (which is where a lot of people end up). Don't discount a grappling school.
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