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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15773
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of the severity of the Covid-19 pandemic, I sincerely believe that if any MA school takes the politically correct approach towards protecting the Student Body as well as those that shadow the doors of any MA school are doing a disservice across the board.

My approach is that NO VACCINNE means no training!! I've underlying conditions and with Covid-19, I'd be a dead duck if I caught it.

Business have gone the politically road because the business to them is far more important that the customer well-being. I understand that owner mindset, but I don't agree with that because lives are put at risk when the P&L is more important than the CDC.

Being strict is the responsible thing for any business. "If I'm strict, then I lose customers." Customers are a dime a dozen when the customer only cares about themselves and not those that might be seriously affected by the Covid-19.

I won't force them to get vaccinated but at the same time, I won't train them and/or train with them.




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crash
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 143

Styles: karate,

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im going to say something that is not going to be popular with some, but requiring proof of the vaccination is a business killer. most businesses that started to require vax have felt a huge loss because of it, the theatre business possibly wont pull out of the shutdown and panic that it caused. (thats why the sudden rush and emergence of channels such as paramount plus, disney plus etc... it is to take the place of theatres and that loss of revenue for the motion picture industry).... the restaurants that tried or are trying to check vax status are seeing a loss of patronage and profit. gyms were hurt badly by the shutdown as well as personal trainers, to require proof of vax and lose half your customers is not going to work in the long run. and with the vax, what if someone decides to stop getting it, do you kick them out? break the contract if there is one? what if someone cant be vaxed or had a bad reaction?, do refuse them service? over time people will slow down with this just as most people dont get the flu vax. it is already happening, i know many who got the first vax but dont plan on getting more. what then? as far as whether anyone makes that choice is up to the individual, but i would not train at any place that would force it on anyone.

Edited to add: after looking at the U.S population vaxxed numbers, 78%of the population has had the initial shot, 66%percent have had the second and only 33% have had the booster..so if a business actually requires that you be current, then you have lost 66% of viable customers already
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15773
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great posts so far everyone.

The vaccine is a business or personal choice one way or another. Forced is a pretty strong word, many businesses are dropping mask mandates per the CDC. Businesses like Wal-Mart forced its customers to wear mask per CDC at one time. Every single doctor of mine requires the wearing of masks, and if you've not a mask, they'll provide one, but you better wear the mask or be asked to leave.

Again, choices are just that one way or another. I doubt that we'll all ever see eye to eye on this topic.



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Patrick
KF Administrator

Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 28276
Location: Los Angeles, California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have removed a couple posts from this thread in error. You can find them below. I apologize for the trouble.

GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
Right now, I look at this as a private business decision...if a school feels they want to have a vaccine policy they can implement one. If students don't want to abide, they can train somewhere else.

As a 57 YO with underlying risk factors, I'm a big proponent of the vaccine to prevent serious illness. I had COVID in March, and I believe that the vaccines helped make my and my spouse's cases very mild. I'll most likely get the second booster in the fall and/or when they come out with a more targeted vaccine for Omicron.

That all said, I'm not a fan of broad vaccine mandates since the current vaccines don't prevent spread. If they do at some point, I'll support them.


@hammer

agreed, you summed up my stance


DarthPenguin wrote:
It's a touchy subject but it is topical.

My BJJ academy had a strict no vaccination no training policy and in addition you were required to take a lateral flow test every day you trained and show the negative test result to the coach. Not everywhere does this but i didn't mind at all.

My karate class everyone was fully vaccinated but there was no test requirement.

Personally i take the view that people have the right not to take something they have an issue with (it is their body) but equally i have the right to choose not to be exposed to something that could be potentially harmful to myself or my family. I've always noticed that the "i have a right" argument seems to be very much a one way street in the mind of the arguer. They have a right not to comply with something (which i don't disagree with) but the other party has no right to respond to this non compliance.

Workwise i do get a lot of info on the effects of Covid (I am a life actuary working on longevity, so my work directly involves calculating estimated lifespans and mortality impacts). It can be clearly seen from all of the data i see that there is an impact from Covid: if you strip out the usual deaths from flu etc that have been rolled into the covid deaths then there is still a statistically significant increase in deaths.

The deaths generally do seem to be focused on those with underlying conditions or risk factors, so for a healthy individual it should be not much more than a flu BUT just because you appear healthy doesn't mean that you have no unknown condition, which could lead to a serious impact.

While the vaccination does not stop transmission it does significantly reduce transmission. The analogy i would give is a seatbelt does not stop you dying from a head on car crash but it does reduce the change of you being harmed.

I would like to mention though that i am not just blindly following vaccine recommendations here: my 5yr old was offered the vaccine and i said no since i don't think that when i balance the probability of a negative covid reaction for him against the probability of an issue from the vaccine that the difference is significant enough to take the chance. Totally different for an adult in my view, so i have had my vaccines and boosters.

Sorry for the long winded post!

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Patrick
KF Administrator

Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 28276
Location: Los Angeles, California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has now been open for two weeks, and I think that is enough time for the various viewpoints to be represented.

I would encourage everyone to be careful with statements about vaccine effectiveness because sometimes you can say something, innocently and without bad intent, that isn't strictly accurate.

For example, if you were to say vaccines don't impact the spread of COVID, strictly speaking, that isn't correct. What you might mean to say is that if you are vaccinated, you can still spread COVID. You can, that's correct.

But to spread COVID, you must be infected with it. And vaccination has reduced the likelihood of infection. And if you aren't infected, you don't spread it. Therefore, vaccinations have had a positive impact on reducing spread.

Details matter, and the data speaks for itself, in both positive and negative ways. But it is data best interpreted by a consensus of experts who have dedicated their lives to the study of diseases. Your questions on vaccine effectiveness are better asked to Google than to a martial arts forum.

Which leaves us with a discussion on whether or not martial arts schools should require vaccination. But it's hard to have one without allowing for the other stuff to creep in. As I mentioned at the start of the post, I think the viewpoints on that have now been well-represented, and we can close this thread.

Thank you for your understanding.
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