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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28901
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
Oh and the picture above can also be viewed as somewhat racist and discriminative. Is it saying the guys looks mean he's a disrespectful guy with no discipline or values? Why chose that guy looking that way to make the point? Also, the traditional guy looks Japanese?!? Well, seems like most of us are maybe causation in the forum and amongst students I see this trend as well, I have over 30 students and growing and have black, Latino, white, but no Asians lol! Just not a good pic to represent the point attempting to be made.


I think it gets the point of the message it is trying to send across. Lots of MMA guys have tattoos, and when we think TMA, a white gi or dobok and a black belt comes to mind. Discriminative, I don't think so much; stereotyping, yes, I believe so.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have hesitated to reply to this, because even with the best of intentions, and otherwise agreeable participants; ultimately TMA and MMA discussions can take a bad turn.

The image being discussed, I would call stereotypical, and inflammatory. It also does not say anything useful; I have met people of poor character who wear the trappings of traditional martial arts. In turn I have met participants of MMA who have used it as a vehicle for positive influence in their lives. As martial artists, we should all respect each others paths, and remember the fundamental lesson of all martial arts; expect the unexpected. All that is practiced by sharing such images is shortsightedness, when really, we all should be practicing taking each individual as they come. I think Patrick said it best far earlier in the thread.

To comment on the UFC of the early years, and the trends observed. They were essentially Vale Tudo matches with the traditional conciliatory rules; we aren't going to tear each others eyes out et cetera. If we look at the list of competitors going into the early UFC most had cut their teeth in kick-boxing or the point-fighting scene. Also, I do not think you can argue the rules of the early UFC were against strikers, as groin shots did little to help Keith Hackney in UFC 4 when he found himself in a head lock.

Ultimately, to quote Carlos Machado; "After the clinch, it doesn't matter what happens, one way or another, we're going to hit the ground, and we'll be in my world. The ground is my ocean, I'm the shark, and most people don't even know how to swim."

Brazilian Ju-jitsu just fought in a way none of the other competitors expected, and it had evolved through Vale Tudo; something none of the competition can claim to have done. Even Ken Shamrock, perhaps the closest in terms of coming from a similar body of competition through pancrase, was unfamiliar with the guard work employed by BBJ, and though he cut through it rather swiftly with a leg lock attempt in his first face off with Royce, he was not experienced enough at first to deal with the complexities of BJJ.

I think a better argument can be made that modern Unified rules are against strikers more; with bans on north south elbows, and striking a downed opponent from a standing position. Early UFC though, I would call it barking up the wrong tree; the Gracie's just brought to the table something the rest of the world didn't have an immediate answer to.

So, onto watching MMA and coming from a traditional background. To me, I feel MMA lacks a certain essential beauty, and that is why I am not a fan. However, as a student of the combative arts, ultimately there are things that can be learnt from observing the trends that occur in MMA, and the tactics that evolve. However, it is just like an exercise in watching any combat sport, or footage of violent incidents; a resource to be used. You can make use of the resource, or ignore it.
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Lugh
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Joined: 08 Oct 2015
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Location: Ireland
Styles: Taekwondo, Shito-ryu, MMA, Jiu Jitsu

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watch the UFC as well, identify as a martial artist, and also happen to be an amateur MMA fighter. I was still in elementary/primary school and enrolled in Taekwondo at the time UFC 1 came out. It was a marketing campaign for BJJ. The Gracies had a hard start teaching BJJ in Socal since no one heard of it, and it was ground based not possessing flashy strikes popular in martial arts at the time. They started the Gracie challenge and dojo storming to spread jts popularity, and its co-founder Rorion hand picked his smaller brother Royce to compete so the world could see a small guy defeating larger opponents with Jiu Jitsu. Its Vale Tudo style rules with no time limit favoured them as well as Jiu Jitsu players use time to wear their opponents down.

You can tell which fighters come from traditional backgrounds, and those that don't. Guys like GSP, Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida, the new prospect Sage Northcutt, and not to mention an Irishman headlining next weeks event in Dublin, my man Joseph Duffy(all Karate guys too!), tend not to trash talk, showboat, and are mkre gracious in victory or defeat. I've seen the trends and fads too. I remember being coached against flashy TKD and Karate kicks I was pulling off in sparring just a few years ago because they "don't work" and leave you vulnerable to take downs.( Wrestling isn't done in Irish or UK schools compared to where I grew up in Missouri so I was confident then in my defense), now you have the likes of Conor McGregor and this whole new generation is exoerimenting with flashy kicks.

Zuffa has played their part too. As an entertainment industry interested in pay per view sales you see fighters trash talking on twitter to hype their fights up, grapplers stood up, favoritism, and all the rest of the pro athlete antics. It's a shame when it affects the whole sport, and leaves me a bit disheartened with an amateur scene that trains like pros, deals with PHD's, making brutal weight cuts, gamble with their health and personal life to make it in a sport largely catered for entertainment, however I have a lot of faith in MMA as a sport, fighting system, and fitness lifestyle. My gym is a Tai Justu school(not the bujinkan ninja stuff. A progressive Jujutsu style with added elements of Muay Thai), we have our traditional self defense classes, and our MMA regimen as well, however we promote traditional values and tolerate no egos. Being a part time bouncer though I will say MMA is also an effective self defence system. Groin strikes and joint locks don't always work on drunks....

And lol at that pic. I understand the intentions, but Jeff Monson is a respectable Jiu Jitsu black belt with a bachelors and masters degree in psychology!!
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UFC and other similar events are made for entertainment. They are sporting competitions and as such the aim is to win. Athletes or fighters must not only be skilled, but also maintain a certain image of themselves. Sometimes this image or "ring personality" can be radically different than their actual everyday attitude.

It is very common for them to portray themselves and behave in such a way that is an exaggerated version of their true self. Even if only for a moment when the fans and cameras are focused on them.

MMA fighters and any fighters who compete have to be showmen to at least some degree. Some just do it more than others. Wether or not a certain fighter has a good or a bad attitude has very little to do with what martial arts they practise.
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RW
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to be a huge UFC can, back in the days guys like Randy Couture, Matt Huges, Chuck Lidell, etc fought.

It was such an interesting thing to see fighters with different backgrounds (e.g. Randy was a wrestler, while believe it or not Chuck had a Kempo Karate background!) and how those backgrounds had to be adapted for a "no holds barred" (notice the quote marks, by that time it was anything but, but still).

You had amazing kickers like Crop Cop, good brawlers like Chuck, great wrestlers like Randy, etc.

The sport has changed a lot. Now everyone trains generic "MMA" and most fights end looking like some sort of wrestling match with the odd, sloppy-looking strike. I'm no longer a fan, the "mixed" and "martial arts" aspect of MMA is gone, now it might as well be called "extreme wrestling" or something
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RW
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judodad_karateson wrote:
MMA was created by the Gracie's as a marketing tool. They started the Dojo storms, where they would go to gyms and challenge fighters, then they created the UFC, where fighters come to them. MMA rules and equipment were designed to favor not just grappling, but newaza specifically. Of course, nothing can beat a solid punch to the jaw, so there is enough variety that most people don't notice this. But make no mistake, BJJ is always be a dominate art in UFC, because that is what UFC was created to exhibit.

MMA is a sport on par with kickboxing or catch wrestling.

As for the photo, it's complete nonsense. There is plenty of style, grace, and technique in the MMA, plenty of brutality in TMA. The most successful MMA combatants have donned Gis years before they ever even though about entering the cage, and doing so only advanced their talents further.


This is true.

The gracies began fighting "value tudo" (portuguese for "everthing goes") in brazil. Then the Fertita bros saw it and thought "let's put this vale tudo stuff in an octagon and make it a bloodsport kind of competition". With time, they had to tone down the bloodsport stuff and abandon the tournament-style rules (e.g. winner fights winner until the finals), but that was its origin alright.
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RW
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Chucksmanhood"][quote="Judodad_karateson"]
Luther unleashed wrote:
Judodad_karateson wrote:
.

There is clearly a rule bias against strikers in the UFC events.


What is the rule bias?


Quick background - the first UFC were BRUTAL. Even groin shots were allowed.

Politicians tried to shut UFC down (funny, those are the same politicians who now love the sport!) and UFC had to get sanctioned by some state athletic comissions in order to be legitimized and therefore secure its financial future.

These commissions imposed rule changes. These changes happen to disfavor strikers A LOT, for example:

- no knee or kick to the head of a "downed" opponent. Don't feel like getting kicked in the head? Put on knee or even one hand on the ground! This also allows wrestlers to spam takedowns.

- No "12 to 6" elbows.

- No soccer kicks

- no kicks to the kidneys

- no headbutts*

- no small joint manipulation*

- no kicking "downed" opponents, or kneeing them*

- no groin strikes*

the items I marked with a * give wrestlers a HUGE advantage. You can spam takedowns, push someone against the cage with your legs wide open, and "control" the opponent by pushing his face with your head like in wrestling thanks to these rules, not to mention you can't just bend their fingers.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These rule changes were necessary to help legitimize the sport and keep it around. Its really a lot more about disciplined training now, too. I don't think the rule changes affected the development of how the fighters trained as much as the fighters wishing to become better trained to win did.
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RW
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
These rule changes were necessary to help legitimize the sport and keep it around. Its really a lot more about disciplined training now, too. I don't think the rule changes affected the development of how the fighters trained as much as the fighters wishing to become better trained to win did.


The rule changes were needed for legitimizing the sport and for keeping it alive.

Having said that, while they may not have caused a change in how fighters train, it does indeed limit a striker's chances: fewer fighters would be so willing to attempt so many takedowns if they knew they could get kicked in the face if the takedown fails, for example. I've seen fights where a guy didn't want to trade blows with Anderson Silva, so he resorted to.... Dropping to the floor , spreading his legs and saying "get on my guard" every time silva got close (this guy was Tales Leites). Then I saw a strikeforce (I think, definitely not UFC) where shinya aoki didn't want to trade blow either so he decided to scoot on his butt across the ring (lol!! I kid you not). These are the sort of things that would end in a nasty KO under a different rule set, for example
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JR 137
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the very first UFCs banned the follow (there may have been a few more things banned, but these are the ones that come to mind):

Groin strikes and grabs
Eye gouges
Fish hooking the mouth
Knee joint kicks
Pressure point strikes

I remember George Dillman immediately using the phrase "See why it's banned by the UFC!" in his kyusho (pressure point striking) ads.

Kicking a downed opponent was banned immediately after the Savate stylist roundhouse kicked the Sumo stylist in the face while he has down and sent his teeth flying.

Justifiably or not, I remember the strikers immediately stating the rules were biased against strikers pretty much since day one. The complained that just about every banned technique was a strike and it wasn't truly "No Holds Barred" as it was being promoted.

As for me, I lost interest pretty quickly. Taking someone to the ground and holding them there to wear them down for what seemed like an hour didn't remotely resemble any real fight I had ever seen before nor since. Every time I've seen a fight go to the ground, it was accompanied by several others stomping, kicking, or hitting one or both of them. The guy on top usually gets a beer bottle to the back of the head. All this coming from a guy (me) who was wrestling and studying karate at the time.

I'll take a good boxing match any day of the week. Not even close to how boxing was back in the day.
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