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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: What age? Reply with quote

What do you think is the minimum age is to become an instructor?

At what grade are you considered an instructor? Nikyu? Ikkyu? Shodan? Nidan? Sandan?

What age should a Sandan (3rd Dan) be?

What age should a Godan (5th Dan) be?

What age should a Hachidan (8th Dan) be?

What age should a Judan (10th Dan) be?

What minimum age should you be to hold the title of Sensei, Shihan, Soke?

I was reading an article written by a very, very young instructor/Kodansha and wondered what the consensus is on minimum age requirements are for instructors and Yudansha/Kodansha grades among this group. That is if there is a consensus.

This has nothing to do with knowledge or skill whatsoever. This is merely your thoughts on age and grade.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6137
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't like age minimums because I feel it should be on an individual basis. And I'm probably going to fall on the younger side of things.

My style / governing body has strict rules for each Dan level and at what point you can be an instructor; you have to pass a course and be 4th Dan or above to open your own school. It's for quality control.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14329
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't guidelines wonderful, and quite subjective, and necessary?!

Here's the SKKA guidelines:

Quote:
What do you think is the minimum age is to become an instructor?

13 years old for JBB. This is the minimum age that students begin assisting the CI. Shodan, at the minimum age of 18 years old one is an instructor but not the CI.

Quote:
At what grade are you considered an instructor? Nikyu? Ikkyu? Shodan? Nidan? Sandan?

Sandan is the minimum rank to obtain the SKKA approval to own/operate one's own dojo under the SKKA brand as a CI.

Quote:
What age should a Sandan (3rd Dan) be?

21 years old.

Quote:
What age should a Godan (5th Dan) be?

30 years of age.

Quote:
What age should a Hachidan (8th Dan) be?

60 years old.

Quote:
What age should a Judan (10th Dan) be?

Not Applicable. This rank was once reserved for only our Soke types, which were abolished in 2010.

Quote:
What minimum age should you be to hold the title of Sensei, Shihan, Soke?

Sensei = 21 years old.
Shihan = 30 years old. Even though the SKKA doesn't utilize the Shihan title.
Soke = Not Applicable within the SKKA ever since 2010. Before the new Proxy, Charters, and By-Laws were amended in 2010, there were only 3 Soke types ever bestowed upon, and only Dai-Soke was bestowed with the Menkyo Kaiden title by Soke...

*Soke was bestowed by Fuyuhiko Saitou Sensei; founder of Shindokan Saitou-ryu
*Dai-Soke was bestowed upon Yoshinobu Takahashi Sensei by Soke Saitou
*San Dai-Soke was bestowed upon Iwao Takahashi Sensei, eldest son of Dai-Soke As a note, San Dai-Soke stripped of his authority, and given a lifetime expulsion via a referendum by the new Hombu, in which the Soke type titles were abolished in 2010.



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Last edited by sensei8 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 148
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: What age? Reply with quote

At what grade are you considered an instructor? Nikyu? Ikkyu? Shodan? Nidan? Sandan?

Instructors are Shodan level. School heads are Sandan level.

What age should a Sandan (3rd Dan) be?

24 years old minimum.

What age should a Godan (5th Dan) be?

33 years old minimum

What age should a Hachidan (8th Dan) be?

54 years old minimum

What age should a Judan (10th Dan) be?

70 years old minimum
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6137
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than age as a criteria, what about time training? Who's more qualified to teach? The 30yr old who has been training for 10 years or the 29yr old who has been training for 25 years?
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Rather than age as a criteria, what about time training? Who's more qualified to teach? The 30yr old who has been training for 10 years or the 29yr old who has been training for 25 years?


I get your point. The basis of the post was age, however since you brought up a new perspective I will interject my opinion.

Time and age have nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to teach. I have personally known a man that has 15 years on me and higher rank and couldn't teach if his life depended on it. He is one of the most awesome technical fighters I personally know but does not possess the ability to teach what he knows outside of just teaching the syllabus. The ability to express things in a way that students can understand is a skill not everyone has. The ability to bring out those aha moments in your student is also a unique skill. Teaching the syllabus is something that just about anyone can do. having the ability to develop real fighters, true MA'ists that UNDERSTAND the art, that is not something everyone can do. Having said that I do feel that age and conversely time do play a role, in some respects a very important role but they still do not determine the ability to teach.

Time plays a very important role in obtaining the knowledge necessary to understand the art and to be able to pass on that knowledge. A 40 yr old Sandan with 6 yrs (lets say he/she belongs to a McDojo belt factory for making my point) does not in my opinion have the necessary years to truly understand the art and therefore does not have the ability to effectively pass on said knowledge that he/she does not possess.

Age also plays a role. Like it or not perception and ego plays a huge role with some people. I would like to say I am open to learning anything from anyone but to be honest I would not study under a 15 yr old instructor. Yes they might have started when they were still in diapers but maturity plays a huge role in how you look at the art and further more how you understand the art. I personally do not feel that a person of this age IS a teacher nor can the effectively teach outside of the basic syllabus.

Having the time and age and even the grade/rank does not insure that that student can effectively pass on what they have learned. Being able to translate the art in a way that students can learn is not a skill that every one possess.

I am of the mid set that just knowing how to do something and having the skill to perform it is not enough to be a teacher. True understanding, obviously at the level you are at in your journey, and being able to translate that to your students is a skill outside of just knowing and being able to do.

Please understand that what I mean by "anyone teaching the syllabus" means teaching the basics of the art. There are many that do just this. Lacking any true understanding or depth of the art is like learning from a book. Which is precisely what I am referring to. In my opinion there is no difference between a "teacher" that teaches the syllabus only and learning from a book. They are both stale and lacking any true depth to understanding the art. It is the small details and "secrets" (not meaning that anything is secret but more those things that must be learned through years of doing, those little nuances that are discovered after hundreds and thousands of times that are what some call the aha moment of deeper understanding of what something truly means and how it is most effectively utilized) that one picks up and learns. One who possess the deeper understanding and more importantly can teach or lead a student to learn is what I consider a teacher. Basically someone that can look past what is blatantly obvious, a punch is performed like this and this is how you do it, and understands the deeper meaning and can pass that on in a way that the student comes to that same moment of understanding. Age and time play a part but are not the true determining factors in what makes a teacher.

I know this does not fit the conventional way of thinking and this might even upset those that think that after X yrs they magically become instructors but this is my opinion. I have studied under both and can tell you without reserve that there is a huge difference in the progress a student can make between the two. Better teacher = better students. Teacher with minimal understanding = students of the like and so on.

I in no way claim this prestigious level of proficiency. I struggle to be the teacher my Shinshii was and probably will never achieve his level. I make these statements to differentiate between the accepted definition and what I consider the true definition of what a teacher is.

Just my 2 cents. For whatever that is worth. Probably not as much as I think.
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kenpo4life
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 264
Location: oakland, ca
Styles: kenpo, judo, bjj, escrima

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the good old days you had to be at LEAST 18. I have been training since I was 3 and I got mine at 19. NOT saying that everyone has to start that young, but standards are important. It is like having to be 16 to drive. I KNEW how to drive at 14, but I still had to wake. When I got my BB my Pop told me that I now had more skill than wisdom. I do NOT believe in the title of GM unless you are the LEGIT and RECOGNIZED founder of a style or theory. Or you are the oldest child of the RECOGNIZED GM. I like what BJJ does, you have to be a training, teaching BB for 45 years. Or like Judo did, they had a senior council to guide the Martial Art and sport
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenpo4life wrote:
In the good old days you had to be at LEAST 18. I have been training since I was 3 and I got mine at 19. NOT saying that everyone has to start that young, but standards are important. It is like having to be 16 to drive. I KNEW how to drive at 14, but I still had to wake. When I got my BB my Pop told me that I now had more skill than wisdom. I do NOT believe in the title of GM unless you are the LEGIT and RECOGNIZED founder of a style or theory. Or you are the oldest child of the RECOGNIZED GM. I like what BJJ does, you have to be a training, teaching BB for 45 years. Or like Judo did, they had a senior council to guide the Martial Art and sport


I love and agree with the drivers license analogy. Its not only about age or years but also about maturity.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2359
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donít know our organizationís age requirements for rank l, and Iím honestly not sure if there are any age requirements. I havenít heard any mentioned anywhere, except when it comes to junior black belt vs adult. I think itís a matter of ability, time in grade, maturity, etc. CIs send yudansha candidates to be tested by Kaicho Nakamura if it is at all possible, and he or the highest ranking branch chiefs in international regions test all candidates after a certain rank. So if the wrong person was tested, itís going to reflect on the CI.

Iíve heard our rule of thumb rank to open your own dojo is 3rd dan. There have been exceptions made for individuals. People have been allowed to open their own dojo under the organizationís banner with a lower rank; the decision to allow it depended on their maturity and experience, teaching ability, proximity to other branch dojos, etc. Iíve heard of an individual who opened a dojo at around brown belt rank 2nd or 1st kyu). It wasnít an official dojo, and was more of a study group. The person had a decent amount of prior experience in another organization and I think another art altogether. This was a person in his/her early 30s who relocated by their company to an area without a branch within a reasonable distance. This person worked closely with another branch dojo, traveled to attend class there and at honbu regularly, and did not promote students. The CI from the overseeing dojo visited regularly and did all testing. I heard that while the arrangement wasnít optimal on paper or logistically, it worked out well. Iím 99% sure that dojo and CI are still around and the CI has reached and probably surpassed the 3rd dan rank.

While I think minimum age requirements are a great idea, I think they should be more of a guideline than a black and white rule. At 42, I know some people my age and older who have no business being in charge of anyone nor anything from a maturity standpoint. Working at several colleges for about 15 years, Iíve met more than a handful of very mature and wise beyond their years 19-25 year olds.

Age should be a guideline, not a set in stone requirement. Especially as the person gets older. For a person whoís met minimum standards and time in rank requirements, is there really a difference in maturity between someone whoís 65 vs someone whoís 70 for a high black belt rank? Hasnít that person been vetted enough previously? If you donít know the maturity level of someone whoís been in your organization for a few decades, what are you doing?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14329
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Rather than age as a criteria, what about time training? Who's more qualified to teach? The 30yr old who has been training for 10 years or the 29yr old who has been training for 25 years?

Quality, never quantity!! Not all black belts can teach, nor should all of them try to; either one can or can't...recognizing ones limitations or abilities go a long way.



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