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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: What does Wing Chun look like from other disciplines? Reply with quote

Often wondered what Wing Chun looks like from other disciplines.

It seems to have become down graded over the years.

The contemporary Wing Chun masters do differ from each other considerably, which I see as a healthy evolution and alternative, that shows they are all leaders and not followers.

I have no affiliation with any one Wing Chun Chuan association, I am however connected to all of them, as they are all related through the basic fundamental fighting principles layed out to all of those that practice Wing Chun.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Shindokan, WC looks like every other style of the MA; disjointed!!



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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a Wing Chun point of view, many other styles look slow and unsure, with an element of chaos.
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singularity6
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had the pleasure of actually observing Wing Chun before. I shall watch some videos and report back!
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure of actually observing Wing Chun before. I shall watch some videos and report back!
Here are a few examples of Wing Chun

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ANcsBrmw9Wk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lF9Ivw_AOaQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgbiMvD6DM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmidZ9HZ7MY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GhmH5jL2hSk
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: What does Wing Chun look like from other disciplines? Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Often wondered what Wing Chun looks like from other disciplines.


Err... at the risk of possibly offending some people, I am going to answer this inquiry honestly.

Based on the videos you posted, and a LOT of the Wing Chun I have seen in the wild, I am gonna have to go with it looks martially invalid.

This may seem bothersome, but please realize that a LOT of the so-called martial arts seem that way to me.

For what constitutes a martially valid system, please see the following.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that Wing Chun has several visual cues:

1. The use of the “Blitz” tactic, as best represented by chain punching, to overwhelm an aggressor’s senses.

2. Striking at the obvious vulnerable points along the centre line; the groin, throat, and eyes. The places people are most afraid to be struck.

3. The use of the goat clamping stance, and movements from said stance, to get inside an attacker’s stance and to undermine their balance.

4. The use of twisting, through presses and deflections, on an attacker’s torso.

As such; Wing Chun arms itself, from appearances, almost exclusively to fight in the “trapping” or “Clinch” range. This makes perfect sense in self-defence; where in civilian self-defence you are usually responding, or pre-empting, a confrontation and often at said mid-range. One can see a similar methodology in many Karate Kata, or other traditional martial arts forms. Similarly; one usually wishes to disengage, rather than street fight, so doing maximum damage in the minimum amount of time makes sense, and is the basic explanation for striking at such a short range. It is to avoid getting tangled up with a potentially stronger attacker, or to allow the moment of opportunity to an end a fight to pass.

However, to address it from a competitive point of view:

From a kick-boxing perspective; the striking does not lend itself well competitively. One can argue that chain punching is inefficient against a trained opponent, and the extreme range neglects other consummate striking strategies. The extreme range severely limit combinations that can be thrown, and against a skilled pugilist, opens one up to suffering significant damage before getting into said range.

From a grappling perspective; one can argue that fighting with percussive techniques at such a range is redundant, when it might be more efficient to attempt a takedown, or a throw from a clinch. Especially against an opponent more likely to try and draw you to the ground, and into guard; such as a Jujutsu player.

With the above said, however, on local sanshou circuits; Wing Chun Practitioners can report success. For example; many Hong Kong Sanshou champions have been students of Wing Chun. I suspect the distance closing techniques of Wing Chun, and the tumbling techniques, lend themselves to a rule set where striking and throwing is allowed but not ground fighting.

Overall; I would rank Wing Chun among the top three traditional schools of Chinese Martial Arts. To be specific; the Wing Chun of Wong Shun Leung. I would rank it amongst the Baji Quan of Liu Yun Chiao, and the Yiquan/Taikiken of Kenichi Sawai. I say this; as all three systems have produced combatants able to achieve results in some field; Wing Chun Fighters in Beimo and Sanshou, Baji Quan as a staple of several body-guard training regimes, and Taikiken had a significant early influence on Kyokushin and Kenka Karate. Sadly; none have yet to produce a top MMA fighter, and so they remain much maligned.

I think a major problem is traditionalism, and a loss of the sense of the KISS principle. A lot of Wing Chun ideas are adhered to without “alive” training to explore and pressure test said ideas. Similarly; I believe a lot, to maintain appeal, have latched Qi Gong concepts onto Wing Chun which were originally not part of the pragmatic self-defence system. To be fair; this critique can be applied to a lot of martial arts traditions.

So in competition; I would argue it looks very misguided. However, from a self-defence perspective it ticks several boxes, but definitely not all, and only if practised with self-defence in mind.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honest responses to this topic is very much appreciated.

As there is a very different perspective from inside out as opposed to the outside in view; just consider the place of residence, where you live.

A wrestling suplex isn't a part of the Wing Chun system, as using excessive strength isn't very beneficial against a person that is alot physically stronger than oneself; whereas speed has the element of surprise, adds power and has maneuvering benefits.

Wing Chun from inside the house, is very different than the outside appearance.

Inside the Wing Chun house it is very plain and simple; excluding the weaponry room.

As many martial art styles are watered down Wing Chun also falls victim to this, in that small hand held knives have been dropped from the system; as Wing Chun is part of the boat culture, where knives are an integral part of it.

Take away the small knives in the Wing Chun system, then speed isn't as deadly as it once was.

Wing Chun is an anti martial art style, that is incomplete without small knives, not intended for competitive sports or with a sports minded mentality.

Flying fingers to the eye of the opponent takes on a new sense of seriousness or danger, if the same technique is done with a small pointed hand held knife.

The house of Wing Chun is on a boat unlike many martial arts that are dry land situated.

This is why Wing Chun as seen today is incomplete or lacking something, Wing Chun belongs in small cramped environments, with dim lighting in small crowded places, or unstable terrain such as on ice or on a boat.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something of a treat. A Wing Chun seminar involving Master Wong.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NkJ6x1tIlY4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tIGzjR_TchU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XmX84qJUR8w

THANKS for watching; tell me what you think of it?
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
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Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest I won't let you get away with being the only one offending people....😉

So asked honest will get honest replies...

We make fun of it... a lot. The most amusing is the anti grappling we tend to see. It's really really bad- I mean really.

Now *could* wing chin have some applicable theories for real fighting? I'm sure it could but the biggest problem I see is the lack of resistance training. This is clearly seen with any and all demos where it is expected that technique "a" incapacitated the their opponent, stunned them, or whatever else.

Second is a lack of power. Chain punching doesn't develop powerful strikes when compared to say boxing. These are anatomical facts here- the narrow and square stance prevents full utilization of legs and hips for good power. There is a video floating around of a Chinese western boxer sparring a wing chin stylist. Granted this is a study of one but after about 5 seconds he puts his hands down because while fast, it means nothing with no power behind it

I've never seen it work-ever. The nail in the coffin was watching two wing chub masters fight. You could tell they've never fought a trained opponent before. For all their deadly strikes it looked like a drunken bar fight.

It really needs to adapt live training with more powerful strikes. Maybe then we could see some of its theories being applied.
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