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Adonis
Black Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 1084
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Your sensei made a good point. Which is true, most likely most martial artist won't get into a fight. Those who frenquently get into fights usually look for it or don't handle them selves well at talking there way, or finding a way out of it.
Is there benifits to Kata/forms/poomse! Absolutely. Does it all relate to fighting or is it neccissary to make great fighters? No!
So it depends on a persons goals. If you like Kata and it meets your goals as to why you take the martial arts. Then continue on.
If it doesn't help meet your goals. Then its time to find new training methods. |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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The only concern i have is that with all the physical and mental aspects you listed, there is a more productive way than kata to develop all of them.
To me kata is outdated. I read an interesting analogy once about traditional martial arts. It went something like "doing a traditional art is like driving a vintage car has compared to a new sports car, not everyone can understand the pleasure of driving the vintage." I suppose that vintage cars arnt for me. Doing kata to build strength when you can lift weights is like traveling in a horsedrawn cart when you can drive a car or catch a bus.
It seems there will always be a market for people wanting to learn traditional arts. The unfortunate thing is some will learn for a while and then start thinking that all the secrets or fighting are hidden in kata, or that you cant have karate without kata etc etc. I dont have a problem with these people trying to maintain a tradition or doing what they want to do with their life. The problem arises when people come to them to seek training and the majority of what they are offered is a kata that is past its time.
In order for a school to be progressive they need to recognise the past, but also live in the now. Kata is not the now, just like horsedrawn carts are not the now. Yet people still try and pass off kata has self defence and fitness training. Sure, you will get some benifits, but there are better ways. And if i wanted to learn self defence i wouldnt go to a school that offered some benifits when i knew there were much more effective ways to learn and progress. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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You make some good points, Cross. What I mention in the article are not the end-all, be-alls of forms training. Although forms, like you mention, may not be the best way to develop all of the above characteristics, it is still one way of doing so.
As far as training in forms for self-defense purposes goes, that, I feel, is very dependent on the instructor, and his approach and methodology towards doing it.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I find I don't agree with the vintage analogy. I can see how someone can view it as such of course. What we have to remember is that you get what you want out of whichever style you're working with.
Let's say you want to learn how to take someone down (e.g. judo) or just hit (boxing) then that's what you train in. But do they not have kata? Of course they do, it's just a different methodology. Say boxing for example, there aren't any katas in that are there? There sure are. What you call hitting the speed bag I call a speed bag kata. Why is that you ask? Well you're maintaining a stance, performing a technique, and the more you practice it the more proficient you'll be. Also the more aware of how your body will move, and behave/react.
We still, then, do kata in some form or another. It's all in execution. I won't deny the practice of kata has changed but it truly is simple. A kata can be one technique with one stance, or it can be 12 stances and 50 techniques, that much doesn't matter.
It boils down to the practice of the art form as well as the techniques. Kata can be very spiritual as well of course. We still need to keep in mind that not everyone does it for fighting capability or strength etc. It is also how we, as artists, choose to express ourselves. The way we interpret the kata is an expression of the art in of itself and highly different from anyone else.
Moreover, you get out of the practice of kata what you put into it. If you go in with the frame of mind that you won't get anything (or much) out of it, well then you aren't. If you go in with a frame of mind that you can learn something, or even hone a skill, then that's what will happen.
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
hostilities...It is best to win without fighting.
- Sun-tzu |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's say you want to learn how to take someone down (e.g. judo) or just hit (boxing) then that's what you train in. But do they not have kata? Of course they do, it's just a different methodology. Say boxing for example, there aren't any katas in that are there? There sure are. What you call hitting the speed bag I call a speed bag kata. Why is that you ask? Well you're maintaining a stance, performing a technique, and the more you practice it the more proficient you'll be. Also the more aware of how your body will move, and behave/react. |
The different between traditional kata and these "boxing kata" you talk about, is that in boxing, the techniques you perform are the same has the techniques you use in the ring, no modification required. A jab on the heavy bag, is the same has a jab in the ring, your stance and guard are the same etc.
In karate kata, the stances are different, one hand goes to the hip, you perform techniques that are rarely seem outside of kata without some serious modifications to make them work. And then when you go to sparring, it ends up looking like sloppy kickboxing, because instead of learning how to strike correctly, all the training time has been spend doing kata and techniques that dont have a direct relation to application. |
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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What we have to remember is that a traditional form doesn't teach one punch while in stance. They teach one punch (in a stance of course) as you grab or move a part of the opponent in another direction, thus the arm returning to hip. You are doing more and this helps to train muscles for certain actions in fights. This can help when you are fighting against more than one opponent. (But that said, there are kata which do not require the arm to go back to the hip so we must keep that in mind as well.)
Assuming someone who trains kata does sloppy technique is glib I think. Perhaps you've only *felt* that way on your own, or viewed beginners, I'm not certain. There may also have been an instruction issue with their school, I'm afraid I can't comment on that one though.
Saying that a martial artist who trains with kata spends all their time doing kata does support your position however I do not, and have not ever seen, a form-utilizing dojo spending all of their time in kata. The dojo I'm currently in practices Kata, Kumite, and Kihon all together. If you'd like to learn more about that I'd politely suggest spending some time watching a few different dojos. Personally observing how they train, and why they train the way they do...even chatting with the instructor between/after classes may help us gain greater appreciation regarding aspects of their curriculum.
That said when it comes to the overall training program a dojo goes with, especially the ones I have seen myself, they cover kumite techniques in their kata application lessons. In this way they learn more of the whys, hows, and history of a technique. I feel this is a more in-depth learning experience myself. That of course is a bit more subjective but then again that's why they call it an art form as well as a fighting style.
_________________
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
hostilities...It is best to win without fighting.
- Sun-tzu |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| cathal wrote: |
| What we have to remember is that a traditional form doesn't teach one punch while in stance. They teach one punch (in a stance of course) as you grab or move a part of the opponent in another direction, thus the arm returning to hip. You are doing more and this helps to train muscles for certain actions in fights. |
Similarly in more dynamic training you are throwing a strike(the same way it will be thrown for real), utilizing footwork alongside the strike(the same way it will be used for real), keeping the other hand in a guarding position and using the same stance that will be used against an opponent. Much more conducive to correct muscle training, being that zero modification of the technique is required for it to be applicable.
| Quote: |
| Assuming someone who trains kata does sloppy technique is glib I think. Perhaps you've only *felt* that way on your own, or viewed beginners, I'm not certain. There may also have been an instruction issue with their school, I'm afraid I can't comment on that one though. |
That was not an assumption, rather an observation from what i have seen at schools i have trained at, schools i have watched, competitions i have attended etc. And i was not implying that kata practitioners have sloppy technique in general, more so that when sparring, the majority tryed to mimic kickboxing style sparring with little success. What they were doing certainly looked nothing like anything done in kata.
| Quote: |
| Saying that a martial artist who trains with kata spends all their time doing kata does support your position however I do not, and have not ever seen, a form-utilizing dojo spending all of their time in kata. The dojo I'm currently in practices Kata, Kumite, and Kihon all together. If you'd like to learn more about that I'd politely suggest spending some time watching a few different dojos. Personally observing how they train, and why they train the way they do...even chatting with the instructor between/after classes may help us gain greater appreciation regarding aspects of their curriculum. |
I agree, the comment that a martial artist spending all his time practicing kata was not to be taken literally, and whilst i agree that i have never seen a school that "only" does kata, in every school i have attended that involve kata, it appears they have a separate set of techniques for kata and kihon, another set for "self defense" and another set for sparring. There is very little overlap of each. |
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shogeri
Brown Belt
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 663
Styles: Instructor in Internal, External, Mixed Styles
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Forms have their roles indeed, and yet shouldn't be the main focus of the way or style, unless that is all the style is for.
Good article!
_________________
Current:Head Instructor - ShoNaibuDo - TCM/Taijiquan/Chinese Boxing Instructor
Past:TKD ~ 1st Dan, Goju Ryu ~ Trained up 2nd Dan - Brown belt 1 stripe, Kickboxing (Muay Thai) & Jujutsu Instructor
Be at peace, and share peace with others... |
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on the post.
