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GS718Trek
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 32

Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu/Judo

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: What happens do your Dan rank in the following events.. Reply with quote

what traditionally happens to ones Dan rank if lets say.. the following events occur?

1.you move to another organization same style?

2.your organization ceases operations and everyone goes their own way?
For reasons being e.g passing of a head with no appointed successor, or org splits up forming individual orgs that consists of certain groups with in the original org (does your old dan rank deserve to be recognized although its under the name of different org if you decide to join a specific group?)

3.you get the boot from your current organization (which results in not being recognized by the org)
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 707
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Depends on the syllabus and the other organization's rules for such things
2. Depends on the syllabus and the other organization's rules for such things
3. You still attained that rank in that style, whether you can still train or not is another matter. I wouldn't know if you can be stripped of rank, but your organization's rules may discuss this situation.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15162
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rank is forever; abilities aren't forever. In that, earning higher Dan ranks are subjective across the board. A Dan rank isn't always transferable, of which, a Dan rank is only meaningful within said new school and/or Governing Body.

Quote:
1.you move to another organization same style?

Ken nailed that answer, so if I may, I'll use it...

"Depends on the syllabus and the other organization's rules for such things."

Quote:
2.your organization ceases operations and everyone goes their own way?
For reasons being e.g passing of a head with no appointed successor, or org splits up forming individual orgs that consists of certain groups with in the original org (does your old dan rank deserve to be recognized although its under the name of different org if you decide to join a specific group?)

Ken nailed that one too...

"Depends on the syllabus and the other organization's rules for such things."

I've solid experience with this particular question, of which I covered here in detail here at KF, because after the passing of our Soke and Dai-Soke, our Governing Body known as the SKKA slowly dissolved into nothing, especially after I stepped down from being its Kaicho. Too many wanted to be in charge of the SKKA, and no one wanted to be anything less than the one in charge.

Splintering rose as though it was the new rage of the page. This meant that these new splinters had to be born into a new Governing Body. I still carry the entire catalog of Archives, including the entire Rank Hard Cards, which were left to me in Dai-Soke's will.

These newly founded Governing Bodies slowly sprouted, but were their ranks valid anymore?? Rank is forever!! So, they can create something from nothing, and seeing that rank is forever, these GB's can establish ranking protocols because of the backing of their knowledge and experience, of which I'd never dispute. They can hold their own Testing Cycles and promote in-house all they want; it's their student body. Therefore, seeing that they're teaching Shindokan still, they can continue the teaching, methodology, and ideology of Shindokan unabated. However, I own the brandings that made up the SKKA, including the By-Laws, the Densho Scrolls, and Logo's; everything due to the will left by Dai-Soke. Which means, I maintain complete proprietary rights to the SKKA.

My own dojo is under my umbrella, lock stock and barrels. Any Shindokan practitioners rank/title is under my umbrella, but only up to the dissolvement of the SKKA and the like, and I'd not cast any aspersions whatsoever.

Quote:
3.you get the boot from your current organization (which results in not being recognized by the org)

Once again, Ken's answer was solid here.

Aside and away, you've several choices...

>One, remain current Dan rank forever, which is fine because knowledge and experience is far more important than rank.

>Two, join another GB, and accept their final rulings over you and your current Dan rank.

>Three, don a white belt proudly under a totally new umbrella; new style...new school/CI...new everything.

>Four, walk into the sunset being complete in your totality.




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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28555
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your rank will always be your rank to you. An instructor or an organization might be able to strip rank, but they can't strip the knowledge along with it.

Now, with that said, if you move into another school or organization, that school or organization may choose not to recognize your rank. If this is the case, you'd have to decide if it's still worth it to train at that place, starting over from a white belt rank.

Other schools or organizations may recognize your rank, and let you wear it. Others may require you to test out to see what equivalent rank they would put you at based on their system.

If an organization dries up and goes away for some reason, again, you still have the knowledge. You still have the rank. If others choose to recognize it or not, just depends.

So, as you can see, there are a myriad of ways the situation could go. What a practitioner would have to decide is how much he or she is concerned with what is wrapped around their waste, as opposed to what they are putting into their knowledge.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15162
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Your rank will always be your rank to you. An instructor or an organization might be able to strip rank, but they can't strip the knowledge along with it.

Now, with that said, if you move into another school or organization, that school or organization may choose not to recognize your rank. If this is the case, you'd have to decide if it's still worth it to train at that place, starting over from a white belt rank.

Other schools or organizations may recognize your rank, and let you wear it. Others may require you to test out to see what equivalent rank they would put you at based on their system.

If an organization dries up and goes away for some reason, again, you still have the knowledge. You still have the rank. If others choose to recognize it or not, just depends.

So, as you can see, there are a myriad of ways the situation could go. What a practitioner would have to decide is how much he or she is concerned with what is wrapped around their waste, as opposed to what they are putting into their knowledge.

Solid post!!

Knowledge and experience is forever, and can't be taken away by any outside source.



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1830

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two personal experiences with what the OPís questions. The first was training under a different instructor within the same shorin ryu association. It took at least three months, perhaps more before the new instructor recognized the shodan grade I had earned under my first instructor. To be fair, it had been at least two years since I had trained regularly in any dojo. Later, under the guidance of that new teacher I received nidan and then sandan directly from the grandmaster at the main dojo.

It would be a good guess to assume that dan grades are easier to carry over if one stays with the same association or governing body.

The next situation is entirely different. When forced to leave because of unforeseen life circumstances, I joined a different shorin ryu association. Same style, but different lineage. The kata were the same but taught differently. I started back at beginning and went through all the technical exams required for all the levels required by the standards of the new sensei and his association. It was quicker than a true beginner, but not by much. Technically I now have three dan grades in two lineages of the exact same shorin ryu.

Itís just as complicated as it sounds. This is why I have stopped thinking about grades and ranks. The only thing that matters to me now is that I enjoy training and trust the instructorís skills and judgement. Perhaps more than my own opinion of whatever progress I may have made since I joined his dojo.

If one is truly serious about pursuing and improving martial arts skills, it might be more productive and worthwhile to just focus on learning instead of grades or ranks. The only thing that ought to matter is the quality of what one is learning and how much one gets out of training. This is one reason why the instructor is more important than the style. I matter what the style/subject is, a student will learn more and retain more if the instructor is effective at teaching.
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JazzKicker
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 147
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal experience has been, every school that had a belt system, including ones in the association that I had been part of, didn't want me.

MMA, boxing, JKD, they don't care, just come and train.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1830

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my particular dojo, those who come in fresh with no martial arts experience whatsoever are a minority. Coincidence, maybe. Personally I was already at sandan in the same style. There are many others who held dan grades with years of experience in different karate styles and various other martial arts systems. What brings everyone together is the instructorís great personality and attitude. He welcomes anyone and puts his all his heart and energy into bringing out the best in every student.

The only condition for students is to be ready to be taught and set aside whatever they may have learned before. The point is he will gladly teach everything he knows, if a student is ready and willing to learn in good faith. Most of my peers and seniors held at least a shodan grade or equivalent in something else when they started. Maybe this previous experience impeded progress as many notions and to be unlearned or at least set aside to learn what is being taught.
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