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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
Sensei8, I like your saying, 'proof is on the floor'. But is it not flawed?
What if you had the hypothetical best martial artist to have ever lived, but he's grown old and weary and now struggles to even walk never mind anything else. If he doddered into your dojo, stooped over a zimmer frame, would he be an expert? |
Flawed?? Nope!!
Here's why I believe it...
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-vt36016.html
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-an-addendum-vt41784.html
I don't believe in things as the "best" because it's an assumption of the observer. Your hypothetical here still speaks about him, while he's much elder nowadays, he's still an "expert" through his knowledge and experience. Besides, anyone at any age, and at any knowledge/experience and, if we must consider, rank, can dodder into any dojo and stoop over a zimmer frame, and still be an "expert" by the observers interpretation.
An "expert" at anything, including the MA, can trip over who knows what. I had once been accused of not possessing any MA knowledge and experience because during a pool game, I missed a lot of shots. This persons reasoning was that all MA should have a keen hand to eye coordination, and I shouldn't miss that many shots. My argument towards that guy was...
"I don't know what you know about the MA, but in all of my years in the MA, I never ever once saw a pool table in our dojo...not ever!!" 53 years later, I'm still poor at playing pool, not good at bowling, not good at horseshoes, not good at darts, not good at basketball, well, there's a lot of things that I'm not good at, well, except the MA.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
Sensei8, I like your saying, 'proof is on the floor'. But is it not flawed?
What if you had the hypothetical best martial artist to have ever lived, but he's grown old and weary and now struggles to even walk never mind anything else. If he doddered into your dojo, stooped over a zimmer frame, would he be an expert? |
Flawed?? Nope!!
Here's why I believe it...
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-vt36016.html
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-an-addendum-vt41784.html
I don't believe in things as the "best" because it's an assumption of the observer. Your hypothetical here still speaks about him, while he's much elder nowadays, he's still an "expert" through his knowledge and experience. Besides, anyone at any age, and at any knowledge/experience and, if we must consider, rank, can dodder into any dojo and stoop over a zimmer frame, and still be an "expert" by the observers interpretation.
An "expert" at anything, including the MA, can trip over who knows what. I had once been accused of not possessing any MA knowledge and experience because during a pool game, I missed a lot of shots. This persons reasoning was that all MA should have a keen hand to eye coordination, and I shouldn't miss that many shots. My argument towards that guy was...
"I don't know what you know about the MA, but in all of my years in the MA, I never ever once saw a pool table in our dojo...not ever!!" 53 years later, I'm still poor at playing pool, not good at bowling, not good at horseshoes, not good at darts, not good at basketball, well, there's a lot of things that I'm not good at, well, except the MA.
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I like this answer |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Simply put, what makes an expert in something is a the number of years of practise and experience in a skill set combined with a great depth of knowledge in the field to which said qualities are important. That and the approval as well as the recognition by others in said field.
Scholars for instance, are called experts in their field of study because their peers and colleagues recognize the depth of their knowledge, experience and efforts to make advancements in it. They also enjoy a certain degree of influence and authority in their field. There is also a certain reputation factor.
For martial arts, it can be more difficult to establish than for scholars and grades mean the very least. |
Let's say you have someone who is fairly low in grade, but understands how there's no such thing as technique, just principles from which techniques can be built on the fly. That person can see a hundred different uses for a basic low block for example, and they can put all those principles together naturally as they move. But they can't seem to learn the lingo, and they struggle to remember the sequences of forms.
Conversely, you have someone who can perform any form to competition standard. They can speak all the lingo. They know all the history. They can perform a jump 360 roundhouse to head height. But ask them to improvise or gods forbid, actually fight, and they have nothing.
Would either of these two hypothetical extremes qualify as a martial arts expert? |
This can be tough to sort out. Expertise, I think, can come in various forms. One can read, learn, and study up a ton on almost any martial art out there, and with the sheer amounts of information available, one can gain a level of expertise in the spiritual aspects, or the historical aspects, but perhaps not the physical aspects of application and execution. I remember back when I first gain access to the internet, FAQs were a big thing, and I searched out and found every MA FAQ on any style I could, printed them and read up on them. There are even more resources out there now to reference, so learning things and studying them and talking about them are even easier.
The more difficult aspect is attaining proficiency in the physical aspects of the Marital Arts. Does becoming expert in this area deem one an expert in totality?
The other consideration to make is if there is a difference here in what a Martial Arts expert is and what a Martial Arts master is?
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
Sensei8, I like your saying, 'proof is on the floor'. But is it not flawed?
What if you had the hypothetical best martial artist to have ever lived, but he's grown old and weary and now struggles to even walk never mind anything else. If he doddered into your dojo, stooped over a zimmer frame, would he be an expert? |
Flawed?? Nope!!
Here's why I believe it...
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-vt36016.html
https://www.karateforums.com/proof-is-on-the-floor-an-addendum-vt41784.html
I don't believe in things as the "best" because it's an assumption of the observer. Your hypothetical here still speaks about him, while he's much elder nowadays, he's still an "expert" through his knowledge and experience. Besides, anyone at any age, and at any knowledge/experience and, if we must consider, rank, can dodder into any dojo and stoop over a zimmer frame, and still be an "expert" by the observers interpretation.
An "expert" at anything, including the MA, can trip over who knows what. I had once been accused of not possessing any MA knowledge and experience because during a pool game, I missed a lot of shots. This persons reasoning was that all MA should have a keen hand to eye coordination, and I shouldn't miss that many shots. My argument towards that guy was...
"I don't know what you know about the MA, but in all of my years in the MA, I never ever once saw a pool table in our dojo...not ever!!" 53 years later, I'm still poor at playing pool, not good at bowling, not good at horseshoes, not good at darts, not good at basketball, well, there's a lot of things that I'm not good at, well, except the MA.
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I like this answer |
You could have hit him with the stick, and responded with, "This is what I would use this stick for..."
But, that probably would have been rude....your response was better, Bob.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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pers
Purple Belt
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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An expert is someone who spends about 8 hours a day ,six days a week for atleast 10 years studying an art or science or any skill you can think of from a credible source .
Just turning up twice a week for 90 minutes would not make one an expert but simply a casual practitioner .
A black belt or even a 5th dan with above training regime would not be an expert but for some it carries a lot of ego .
I should add I am not an expert despite having trained in karate for about 29 years .
_________________
never give up ! |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Expertise can be defined by many different points but one of the common traits that stand out is the fact that an expert is constantly active in their field. Doing it and thinking about it occupies every waking moment. They are not only highly knowledgeable and competent, but entirely consumed by their chosen path. To them there is no such thing as “good enough” or “knowing enough”. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Expertise can be defined by many different points but one of the common traits that stand out is the fact that an expert is constantly active in their field. Doing it and thinking about it occupies every waking moment. They are not only highly knowledgeable and competent, but entirely consumed by their chosen path. To them there is no such thing as “good enough” or “knowing enough”. |
Solid post!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: |
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The actual definition: "Having comprehensive or authoritative knowledge."
To me, comprehensive and authoritative are 2 different things. One can achieve comprehensive knowledge after investing a sufficient amount of time to practice (i.e., earning a bachelor's degree or a black belt.)
To have authoritative knowledge, it would seem that one should be excelling in ones field - either extending the existing knowledge, or being in charge of what is known. In this case, it would only be high ranking instructors (or folks who've completed graduate programs in college.)
While I have a few degrees in math and teach at a community college, I do not consider myself to be an expert. And, I'm only half way to my black belt (so no expertise there!)
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Just to nitpick, the definition of “comprehensive or authoritative knowledge” would be more accurate if it said “and” instead. They are indeed different, but possessing both is what makes the basic definition of an expert. In other words, a martial arts expert is simply someone who is highly skilled and who serves a reference or example by others who train in the same system. Someone whom others will consult, listen to and follow to get important insight into what they practise. It should also be noted that even among experts, there are different levels and not all experts have a far-reaching reputation, nor do they seek it. Some are not even recognized as experts until later in their life or after their passing. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Then there's the "expert" on the floor, wherever that floor might be, or the "expert" from reading books on said subject but having never been on said floor...ever.
I'll take the "expert" on the floor!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
