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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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 Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Every student should be allowed the same opportunities as the other students no matter their limitations.
If this saying is true, and meant to be of value, then live up to it. If not, then nothings of any significant value...
"The Black Belt Mind"
We, here at KF, are always saying that the belt doesn’t prove that you have skills or that you are the greater person. It is the mindset that you portray in having that belt, whatever belt it may be. White or black, having the mindset and attitude is the main reason why you deserve the belt.
Most important is that those MAist with physical limitations are protected by Law in the USA, the American Disabilities Act of 1990...
"The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. The purpose of the law is to make sure that people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The ADA gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services, and telecommunications. The ADA is divided into five titles (or sections) that relate to different areas of public life." Referenced from...
https://adata.org/learn-about-ada
I've been fortunate enough to have awarded a handful of disabled students to Shodan, and 2 to Nidan and 5 to Sandan. It's not what they lack, it's what they posses that counts because in my eyes they don't lack anything.
Just who are we to say that those with disabilities are less worthy than we are who've no disabilities, especially in the MA?!!?! Again, the search should never be about rank, but of effective knowledge and experience.
Imho!!
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In this case if a student has a limitation with using their legs. Would the focus be more on joint locking and hand techniques? I ask because soon I will be helping my instructor with teaching but I have to be careful here. Like I don't want to impose some generic skill set and saying it's either done like that or your not qualified. On the other hand you can have a person with one healthy hand and that hand can be capable of destructive power. This will compensate for their handicap.
My biggest fear would be is of I give the student false confidence. This would probably haunt me for life. But at the same time a person's sincere effort as well as dedication should be acknowledge since it is a winning trait and one that is becoming rare. |
I would be careful about calling it a handicap. The reason being that folks (such as myself) that have limitations in certain ways often think a lot more about how to work around the current limitations and avoid acquiring new ones. Whereas those still blessed with everything working properly often give little or no thought to how they might function if something breaks.
Within our class, for example, if you say to a training partner 'yes but what if ...? The response you get differs between those, even at black belt, who have a fully working body, and those even at lower grades who have something that doesn't work. The former group will often look confused, having clearly never thought much beyond the actual technique, while the latter group will often enthusiastically agree to explore all the ins and outs. Incidentally I prefer working with the latter group, because they're experience and outlook is often much more closely aligned to actual real life.
Often those of us with such limitations don't consider ourselves to be handicapped. Sure it would be great to take all the experience gained from having that limitation then somehow magically take that limitation away. So I'm not saying it's a good thing to have physical limitations. But it's not always a handicap. Handicap suggests automatic disadvantage. Those of us with limitations don't necessarily see ourselves as at a disadvantage. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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If you would like to go back to the original black belts, the only criteria was that they knew how to fall well enough to not get injured when Kano Jigoro or one of his Kodokan representatives was teaching and needed someone to demonstrate on. Most people don't like to think of black belts that way, though. It loses its mystique.
These days, there are too many criteria to ever boil it down to just one. I couldn't possibly do it, personally.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
If you would like to go back to the original black belts, the only criteria was that they knew how to fall well enough to not get injured when Kano Jigoro or one of his Kodokan representatives was teaching and needed someone to demonstrate on. Most people don't like to think of black belts that way, though. It loses its mystique.
These days, there are too many criteria to ever boil it down to just one. I couldn't possibly do it, personally. |
I didn't realise this was Kano's criteria. I like it. It kind of fits with my opinion of different coloured belts in general. I concluded quite some time ago that coloured belts have no value at all, except to help visiting instructors who don't know anything about you personally, to quickly be able to tell who to pick to demonstrate on. The scenario is like to use as example is where a big strong athletic man in his prime gets picked out to be taken down. Without belts, he might look like a good candidate, able to take it. While the 60 year old rotund person might look at bit weak and vulnerable. Big man gets thrown, he panics and fights it. He suffers long term joint damage. Turns out it was only his third class. Now put belts on, our big man has a white belt and our frail looking rotund older person has a black belt with several stripes on it. Now things look very different indeed. Old chap gets picked, he dutifully falls down, rolls out, and lands back on his feet and bows. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Every student should be allowed the same opportunities as the other students no matter their limitations.
If this saying is true, and meant to be of value, then live up to it. If not, then nothings of any significant value...
"The Black Belt Mind"
We, here at KF, are always saying that he belt doesn’t prove that you have skills or that you are the greater person. It is the mindset that you portray in having that belt, whatever belt it may be. White or black, having the mindset and attitude is the main reason why you deserve the belt.
Most important is that those MAist with physical limitations are protected by Law in the USA, the American Disabilities Act of 1990...
"The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. The purpose of the law is to make sure that people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The ADA gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services, and telecommunications. The ADA is divided into five titles (or sections) that relate to different areas of public life." Referenced from...
https://adata.org/learn-about-ada
I've been fortunate enough to have awarded a handful of disabled students to Shodan, and 2 to Nidan and 5 to Sandan. It's not what they lack, it's what they posses that counts because in my eyes they don't lack anything.
Just who are we to say that those with disabilities are less worthy than we are who've no disabilities, especially in the MA?!!?! Again, the search should never be about rank, but of effective knowledge and experience.
Imho!!
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In this case if a student has a limitation with using their legs. Would the focus be more on joint locking and hand techniques? I ask because soon I will be helping my instructor with teaching but I have to be careful here. Like I don't want to impose some generic skill set and saying it's either done like that or your not qualified. On the other hand you can have a person with one healthy hand and that hand can be capable of destructive power. This will compensate for their handicap.
My biggest fear would be is of I give the student false confidence. This would probably haunt me for life. But at the same time a person's sincere effort as well as dedication should be acknowledge since it is a winning trait and one that is becoming rare. |
Adapt to what the student with a disablity can do, and not what can't be done. The remaining abilities will make-up for what the physical body can't. When someone is blind, for example, the other senses become much more heightened to a very sensitive ability.
Teach THE STUDENT, and not the disability!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Criteria is subjective and based upon the art, organization and instructors requirements and expectations.
There is no set criteria or standards for black belt nor any grade. If there were you would only have one art. Each has their own.
I've seen BB's that IMPO were not deserving of Gokyu and in some cases I've seen students that I wondered why their instructors hadn't granted higher grades. It's subjective at best even within the same organization.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 75
Styles: Freestyle karate, kickboxing, tai chi
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Criteria is subjective and based upon the art, organization and instructors requirements and expectations.
There is no set criteria or standards for black belt nor any grade. If there were you would only have one art. Each has their own.
I've seen BB's that IMPO were not deserving of Gokyu and in some cases I've seen students that I wondered why their instructors hadn't granted higher grades. It's subjective at best even within the same organization. |
I understand there is no set criteria, it's just that I'm interested in people's opinion on what they consider makes (Or perhaps should make) a black belt.
It's like if you are someone you don't know, and are told they are a black belt, what do you assume. Before I ever trained in MA, I would always assume the person could fight to a certain standard in a certain school of self defense. Now I know that is not the case. I've seen black belts in my karate club who could not throw a punch correctly but can perform beautiful kata. In the real world, that would not equate to effective self defence, just the ability to remember a sequence of moves with (hopefully) excellent form.
To an extent, I still hold that view, being that karate' s key definition is martial. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Even not taking different organizations and styles into account, “black belt” is a pretty big range or ranks and expectations. Are we talking 1st dan? 5th dan? 10th dan?
If we’re talking about 1st dan, which is pretty much entry-level black belt, IMO a 1st dan is someone who’s proficient in the basics of the art. Notice I said proficient in the basics and not “mastered the basics” like I’ve heard people elsewhere say often. Proficient in the basics to me means they’ve got a solid understanding of the principles of them and can apply and demonstrate them sufficiently. They haven’t mastered them, and they certainly haven’t perfected them. They can use them to a pretty good standard against resistance from competent partners/opponents. They’re not a killing machine by any means, but they can hold their own and won’t be outclassed and outmatched by the majority of people ranked below them.
A 1st dan should also be able to teach the kyu curriculum to kyu students. That doesn’t mean run a class; rather, it means they should be able to individually help anyone (barring special needs, modifications, etc.) who has questions about kyu material. For instance they should be able to pick out mistakes, and answer “what am I supposed to do in this kata?” It won’t be perfect and they might make some mistakes in teaching it, but they’ll be subtle mistakes and/or not teaching the most efficient way. I guess a better way of saying it would be they’d be a competent one-on-one teacher/tutor type than running a full class.
Just my opinion, coming from a karate background. Most arts are pretty similar. Judo and BJJ are notably different from my understanding. I’m pretty sure a BJJ black belt has learned pretty much the entire syllabus and has demonstrated they’ve got a high level of proficiency in it against their peers. I think Judo is somewhere in between, but there’s definitely the proficiency against the peers in competition or competition-like scenarios. |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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To me becoming a black belt means that at a minimum you have mastered the basics of your particular style. You might want to add more to that criteria but mastering the basics should be the minimum.
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WildBourgMan |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think for a style/association to be credible beyond its own boundaries, we must ask ourselves, what do people outside of martial arts think black belt means. Because at the end of the day, you are selling a dream to people. Nobody joins a martial arts club with the dream of one day being able to perform a few choreographed sequences and count to 10 in another language. If you said to someone, 'after at least 5 years, if you work really hard and give us loads of money, you'll be able to kick something that isn't moving, fight thin air, and bow a lot', I reckon most people would say no thanks.
So what do people believe they are working towards when they sign up?
Well let's start with what is promised. Many martial arts adverts offer fitness, confidence, self defence as a minimum. So surely then a black belt should be fit, confident, and able to defend themselves in many realistic scenarios.
Clubs have rules. And those rules are designed to keep people safe. I get that. But sometimes the rules are so restrictive that anyone with an open mind will quickly realise that their training is flawed. For example, if the rules say, don't fight a takedown attempt because that's when people get hurt, then it doesn't take much to realise that in a real fight, your opponent won't dive as soon as he feels a technique going on. Are you a black belt if you haven't tried your techniques against resistance? Can you truly have confidence in a technique you've never truly tested or seen tested? If the answer is no, then you haven't achieved one of the key attributes often advertised as a benefit of martial arts, confidence. If you haven't achieved what was promised, then how can you be a black belt?
By that logic, I think regrettably, many clubs and associations really should not be dishing out black belts, ever. Others however, produce people that have genuine skill and ability at much lower grade, and therefore produce very credible black belts. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| wildbourgman wrote: |
| To me becoming a black belt means that at a minimum you have mastered the basics of your particular style. You might want to add more to that criteria but mastering the basics should be the minimum. |
I think mastered is too strong a term; I prefer proficient in the basics.
When you’re proficient, you have a solid understanding of them, and you can apply them in textbook scenarios and against a good bit of resistance. You’re not a killing machine, but you can hold your own under reasonable circumstances.
Mastered the basics takes that a step further - you’ve got a far better understanding of the basics, and you can apply them in unconventional ways. You’re not just doing what you’re taught; you own them. You can use them under more than reasonable circumstances - people a significant bit stronger, faster, etc. than you.
I look at mastered the basics as highly skilled in them vs proficient being quite functional. Perhaps hard to describe, so I’ll say a sandan/3rd dan has mastered the basics, whereas a shodan/1st dan is proficient in them.
Then there’s perfected the basics vs mastered them. If I were to ask very high ranking yudansha/black belts, say 7-10th dan, if they’ve perfected the basics, I’m sure they’d smile and genuinely say no they haven’t.
Perhaps we’re on the same page and this is all semantics. |
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on the post.
