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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii, your description of applications sound a lot like some I've read in a Kane and Wilder book. Good stuff. |
Not to sound ignorant but what is a Kane and wilder book? |
Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder, who practice and teach Goju-Ryu, and both have a good deal of experience doing security work of various types, wrote a book called "The Way of Kata," which goes over some fundamental concepts for bunkai. |
Thanks. I'll look it up. |
Sorry, I should have been more specific when I typed that up. I can see how that might have looked, and that was not my intention at all. The title of the book is The Way of Kata, by those two mentioned. They've written several books together, and I have several of them, so I just tend to refer to them as the pair.
Thanks for helping me out, Wastelander.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169
Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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This was a cool and informative video (moreso from watching than listening, but still cool). Thanks. |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: What was training under the founders really like? |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
With all the (excellent) talk of kata lately, so many people have so many different ideas of what training was actually like in the days of Miyagi, Funakoshi, etc. People imply it was all kata from day, and not much else for quite some time. I’ve heard people say students would be taught a kata and work on it for years before learning another one.
I found a great interview with Meitoku Yagi a while back. Yagi was one of Chojun Miyagi’s (founder of Goju Ryu) students. He offers some insight on how the training was conducted back then...
http://www.hgweb.nl/isshinryu/history/yagi.htm
Excerpts I find quite interesting (I deleted some stuff in each one to simplify)...
Yagi: We did many, many repetitions of yobi undo drills, that's why Miyagi had so few regular students. (Yobi undo drills are basic conditioning exercises that can be extremely demanding). Each student would count for 100 repetitions of a single drill. Sometimes everyone would have to count for 1,000 repetitions. After a year or two most students would leave because there was easier training elsewhere.
Yagi: Sanchin training. Yes, in the early days many students came to Master Miyagi to train. He would train them very hard for three to five years before he taught the kata sanchin. Many of the students left before they even learned sanchin but if they stayed he then began to teach them kata sanchin. He would only teach them kata sanchin and this went on for two or three years. It was hard training. Many students left and went looking for another dojo.
Yagi: In the old days Master Miyagi often taught in two ways. One, the beginners way, was with no understanding of what they were learning. And last, for the advanced student, was a complete understanding of what they had learned. He would very rarely give insights or meaning to the kata that he taught until the student showed mastery of the form through hard and consistent training.
Yagi: When Chojun Miyagi taught karate he taught all students the beginners way. He had very few advanced students but many came and learned the beginners way. After a period of time, these students left but only with the beginners way of doing things. It is my responsibility as senior to teach the advanced way to the world. This is my future and my intention. Goju-ryu is now world wide. These methods must then be passed on world wide.
Yagi: Miyagi never awarded anyone a black belt. He was in the process of formulating requirements for the black belt but he died before he completed this.
What I gather from this is Miyagi didn’t teach kata until the student was there for a few years. Before kata was taught, the student was taught basics, strength and agility training, and body conditioning. After the student reached a level of proficiency, then they were taught their first kata - Sanchin. And they weren’t taught application of the kata for quite some time.
From what I’ve read in that article and elsewhere, Yagi was the only student taught all of the Goju Ryu kata from Miyagi. Advanced students learned some of them, but not all of them. It probably wasn’t until after Miyagi’s death that the other seniors learnt the rest of the Goju Ryu kata.
From other articles/sources, Miyagi taught the same kata differently to different students. He altered kata according to individuals’ strengths and weaknesses. He also developed some of the kata himself and/or assisted his teacher (Kanryo Higashionna) in developing some of them. By developing some of them himself, they probably went through some changes along the way. This could explain the variations in different Goju schools, as the head of each school’s lineage may have learned them at different times.
This seems in stark contrast to how we’re taught today.
Any opinions? Anything I’m missing?
If you have similar articles about other founders or people from Miyagi’s generation, please post them. I’m on a history kick lately. How do you think Miyagi would feel if he walked into a Goju school today? |
The fact that miyagi died with almost no one knowing his system tells you everything you need to know about this method of teaching.
Imo old Karate was way too focused on building up the individual and not focussed enough on employing skills. I think this is probably in part to do with how malnourished poor folk were in those days. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: What was training under the founders really like? |
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| DaveB wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
With all the (excellent) talk of kata lately, so many people have so many different ideas of what training was actually like in the days of Miyagi, Funakoshi, etc. People imply it was all kata from day, and not much else for quite some time. I’ve heard people say students would be taught a kata and work on it for years before learning another one.
I found a great interview with Meitoku Yagi a while back. Yagi was one of Chojun Miyagi’s (founder of Goju Ryu) students. He offers some insight on how the training was conducted back then...
http://www.hgweb.nl/isshinryu/history/yagi.htm
Excerpts I find quite interesting (I deleted some stuff in each one to simplify)...
Yagi: We did many, many repetitions of yobi undo drills, that's why Miyagi had so few regular students. (Yobi undo drills are basic conditioning exercises that can be extremely demanding). Each student would count for 100 repetitions of a single drill. Sometimes everyone would have to count for 1,000 repetitions. After a year or two most students would leave because there was easier training elsewhere.
Yagi: Sanchin training. Yes, in the early days many students came to Master Miyagi to train. He would train them very hard for three to five years before he taught the kata sanchin. Many of the students left before they even learned sanchin but if they stayed he then began to teach them kata sanchin. He would only teach them kata sanchin and this went on for two or three years. It was hard training. Many students left and went looking for another dojo.
Yagi: In the old days Master Miyagi often taught in two ways. One, the beginners way, was with no understanding of what they were learning. And last, for the advanced student, was a complete understanding of what they had learned. He would very rarely give insights or meaning to the kata that he taught until the student showed mastery of the form through hard and consistent training.
Yagi: When Chojun Miyagi taught karate he taught all students the beginners way. He had very few advanced students but many came and learned the beginners way. After a period of time, these students left but only with the beginners way of doing things. It is my responsibility as senior to teach the advanced way to the world. This is my future and my intention. Goju-ryu is now world wide. These methods must then be passed on world wide.
Yagi: Miyagi never awarded anyone a black belt. He was in the process of formulating requirements for the black belt but he died before he completed this.
What I gather from this is Miyagi didn’t teach kata until the student was there for a few years. Before kata was taught, the student was taught basics, strength and agility training, and body conditioning. After the student reached a level of proficiency, then they were taught their first kata - Sanchin. And they weren’t taught application of the kata for quite some time.
From what I’ve read in that article and elsewhere, Yagi was the only student taught all of the Goju Ryu kata from Miyagi. Advanced students learned some of them, but not all of them. It probably wasn’t until after Miyagi’s death that the other seniors learnt the rest of the Goju Ryu kata.
From other articles/sources, Miyagi taught the same kata differently to different students. He altered kata according to individuals’ strengths and weaknesses. He also developed some of the kata himself and/or assisted his teacher (Kanryo Higashionna) in developing some of them. By developing some of them himself, they probably went through some changes along the way. This could explain the variations in different Goju schools, as the head of each school’s lineage may have learned them at different times.
This seems in stark contrast to how we’re taught today.
Any opinions? Anything I’m missing?
If you have similar articles about other founders or people from Miyagi’s generation, please post them. I’m on a history kick lately. How do you think Miyagi would feel if he walked into a Goju school today? |
The fact that miyagi died with almost no one knowing his system tells you everything you need to know about this method of teaching.
Imo old Karate was way too focused on building up the individual and not focussed enough on employing skills. I think this is probably in part to do with how malnourished poor folk were in those days. |
To the bold. I have not really studied much about Miyagi as my main focus is on Shuri-Te but I am hoping that you have knowledge that he was poor instead of making a reference to farmers and peasants creating Ti, Toudi (Karate) because this is not the case. The warrior class created the art and they were anything but poor. Most, based on their class, were very well to do.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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The warrior class were the people practicing in the old days when the likes of Funakoshi was young. With the meiji restoration and the abolition of the samurai class, karate started to grow and people like itosu started to teach more broadly.
I could be wrong about the reason behind the focus on strength over skill.
It could just be they felt fights were won by the strongest. Either way it has led to a culture of people with far more theory than skill because so much time is devoted to technique and not to the "how" of fighting. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Dave B
That’s an interesting view on Miyagi and one I hadn’t considered. It could be correct, but I lean another way...
Miyagi wasn’t poor. He came from a relatively wealthy family and could afford to travel to China several times for a few months at a time. I doubt his students and most others’ students were peasants. How much time and energy would peasants have to truly dedicate to training?
Regarding a lot of students leaving, I think it was due to the harsh training. In the article I posted, Yagi claims that the students were covered in bruises. Many of them were so sore and beat up that they’d rig up a rope to pull on to get themselves off the toilet.
My view is he probably made the training harsh to build mental and physical toughness, and as a way of the student proving they were worthy, in a sense. I don’t think they left because they didn’t learn anything; I think they left because it was too harsh. I highly doubt training consisted solely of line drills, exercises, and Miyagi tee-ing off on them. For a modern perspective, think of Kyokushin. It’s probably the biggest revolving door in TMA due to the full contact nature, and starting that at pretty much day one. I’d imagine Miyagi’s Goju Ryu wasn’t much different in that regard.
Which viewpoint is correct? That’s the million dollar question. |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
Dave B
That’s an interesting view on Miyagi and one I hadn’t considered. It could be correct, but I lean another way...
Miyagi wasn’t poor. He came from a relatively wealthy family and could afford to travel to China several times for a few months at a time. I doubt his students and most others’ students were peasants. How much time and energy would peasants have to truly dedicate to training?
Regarding a lot of students leaving, I think it was due to the harsh training. In the article I posted, Yagi claims that the students were covered in bruises. Many of them were so sore and beat up that they’d rig up a rope to pull on to get themselves off the toilet.
My view is he probably made the training harsh to build mental and physical toughness, and as a way of the student proving they were worthy, in a sense. I don’t think they left because they didn’t learn anything; I think they left because it was too harsh. I highly doubt training consisted solely of line drills, exercises, and Miyagi tee-ing off on them. For a modern perspective, think of Kyokushin. It’s probably the biggest revolving door in TMA due to the full contact nature, and starting that at pretty much day one. I’d imagine Miyagi’s Goju Ryu wasn’t much different in that regard.
Which viewpoint is correct? That’s the million dollar question. |
I wasn't suggesting Miyagi himself was poor, but I doubt there were that many wealthy folks on Okinawa to fill all the dojo of the people we still talk about, let alone all the masters we've forgotten about.
Gichin Funakoshi's autobiography details exactly how tough it was to work in the fields and train as though from a noble family his father was a gambler who squandered their wealth.
Hohan Soken also talked about training when people were poor and had to work all day, particularly how devastating injury could be.
Also there's no way Miyagi learned in this way from his chinese teachers. He only spent a short time travelling and learning kung fu, so had he been subjected to years of fitness training followed by years on a single training form by each teacher he learned from he'd have learned nothing. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Miyagi’s main teacher was Kanryō Higaonna. He could’ve gotten that mentality from him rather than the Chinese. I think he made 2 main trips to China - one with a fellow student of Higaonna, and a second trip after Higaonna’s death in order to further his knowledge. I think he wasn’t able to find who he was looking for his second time, and therefore trained with others; this is where he allegedly learned skills he incorporated into Tensho kata.
As far as his popularity and acceptance of his methods goes, Miyagi’s Goju Ryu was reportedly the first style of karate to be recognized by the Dai Nippon Butokukai, and he taught at police stations and schools, so I highly doubt it was all strength and conditioning for several years. Perhaps he taught differently in his early days when Yagi was coming up compared to later on? Yagi was one of his senior-most students. Or perhaps he taught differently in his home garden/dojo than he did (relatively speaking) publicly?
I’m no expert by any means, nor am I a Goju practitioner. It’s mostly speculation on my part; I’m just trying to get more insight into how things were back in the day, and how much things have changed. I haven’t seen much on how day to day training was done back then by original students of that era’s founders. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| DaveB wrote: |
The warrior class were the people practicing in the old days when the likes of Funakoshi was young. With the meiji restoration and the abolition of the samurai class, karate started to grow and people like itosu started to teach more broadly.
I could be wrong about the reason behind the focus on strength over skill.
It could just be they felt fights were won by the strongest. Either way it has led to a culture of people with far more theory than skill because so much time is devoted to technique and not to the "how" of fighting. |
Well in order to understand the training then you have to understand that most would only take on worthy students. This simply put meant that most teachers would have their potential students prove themselves before they would actually start teaching them. The major focus was conditioning training to see if their will would break and if they had the proper attitude and character they were looking for in a student. However this was not the primary focus once accepted by the teacher.
To the bold above - conditioning or Hojo Undo is a part of training. In some arts it is more important and in others it is a small part of training. You are making a pretty broad statement about all Okinawan arts that is not true.
Our primary focus is on the Kata and the applications that it contains. Conditioning is a part of our training (a small part of class) and is done primarily outside of the Dojo by the individual. The focus is to learn how to defend oneself not to look like Arnold. The Dojo is not a Gym.
I think your basis of argument is flawed as there many disciplines and no two are exactly the same.
I have to correct your historical statement as well. Funakoshi as well as everyone else that was studying the art (Toudi or Ti'gwa) then was of class lineage, albeit in his case of lower Pechin class. Itosu dumbed down the art in order to teach it to the commoners and to school children. It's focus was physical fitness not combative training. Most of the combative elements (Chibudi, Tuiti, Tegumi, Ti and Quan Fa) were removed. The Kata was taught without explanation. The intent of the Kata was changed and the applications were for all intents and purposes replaced, removed or taught as something else. Example - blocks.
This is also why modern arts question elements of the Kata like throws and are now creating applications because the founders applications were not passed down to them.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| DaveB wrote: |
The warrior class were the people practicing in the old days when the likes of Funakoshi was young. With the meiji restoration and the abolition of the samurai class, karate started to grow and people like itosu started to teach more broadly.
I could be wrong about the reason behind the focus on strength over skill.
It could just be they felt fights were won by the strongest. Either way it has led to a culture of people with far more theory than skill because so much time is devoted to technique and not to the "how" of fighting. |
Well in order to understand the training then you have to understand that most would only take on worthy students. This simply put meant that most teachers would have their potential students prove themselves before they would actually start teaching them. The major focus was conditioning training to see if their will would break and if they had the proper attitude and character they were looking for in a student. However this was not the primary focus once accepted by the teacher.
To the bold above - conditioning or Hojo Undo is a part of training. In some arts it is more important and in others it is a small part of training. You are making a pretty broad statement about all Okinawan arts that is not true.
Our primary focus is on the Kata and the applications that it contains. Conditioning is a part of our training (a small part of class) and is done primarily outside of the Dojo by the individual. The focus is to learn how to defend oneself not to look like Arnold. The Dojo is not a Gym.
I think your basis of argument is flawed as there many disciplines and no two are exactly the same.
I have to correct your historical statement as well. Funakoshi as well as everyone else that was studying the art (Toudi or Ti'gwa) then was of class lineage, albeit in his case of lower Pechin class. Itosu dumbed down the art in order to teach it to the commoners and to school children. It's focus was physical fitness not combative training. Most of the combative elements (Chibudi, Tuiti, Tegumi, Ti and Quan Fa) were removed. The Kata was taught without explanation. The intent of the Kata was changed and the applications were for all intents and purposes replaced, removed or taught as something else. Example - blocks.
This is also why modern arts question elements of the Kata like throws and are now creating applications because the founders applications were not passed down to them. |
I was thinking more of Japanese karate when I wrote.
I'm not sure how your comment corrected my historical comment.
What is chibudi? and what form does ti take in Okinawan karate? |
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on the post.
