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What was training under the founders really like?

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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:43 pm Post subject:

DaveB wrote:

MatsuShinshii wrote:

DaveB wrote:

The warrior class were the people practicing in the old days when the likes of Funakoshi was young. With the meiji restoration and the abolition of the samurai class, karate started to grow and people like itosu started to teach more broadly.

I could be wrong about the reason behind the focus on strength over skill.
It could just be they felt fights were won by the strongest. Either way it has led to a culture of people with far more theory than skill because so much time is devoted to technique and not to the "how" of fighting.

Well in order to understand the training then you have to understand that most would only take on worthy students. This simply put meant that most teachers would have their potential students prove themselves before they would actually start teaching them. The major focus was conditioning training to see if their will would break and if they had the proper attitude and character they were looking for in a student. However this was not the primary focus once accepted by the teacher.

To the bold above - conditioning or Hojo Undo is a part of training. In some arts it is more important and in others it is a small part of training. You are making a pretty broad statement about all Okinawan arts that is not true.

Our primary focus is on the Kata and the applications that it contains. Conditioning is a part of our training (a small part of class) and is done primarily outside of the Dojo by the individual. The focus is to learn how to defend oneself not to look like Arnold. The Dojo is not a Gym.

I think your basis of argument is flawed as there many disciplines and no two are exactly the same.

I have to correct your historical statement as well. Funakoshi as well as everyone else that was studying the art (Toudi or Ti'gwa) then was of class lineage, albeit in his case of lower Pechin class. Itosu dumbed down the art in order to teach it to the commoners and to school children. It's focus was physical fitness not combative training. Most of the combative elements (Chibudi, Tuiti, Tegumi, Ti and Quan Fa) were removed. The Kata was taught without explanation. The intent of the Kata was changed and the applications were for all intents and purposes replaced, removed or taught as something else. Example - blocks.

This is also why modern arts question elements of the Kata like throws and are now creating applications because the founders applications were not passed down to them.

I was thinking more of Japanese karate when I wrote.

I'm not sure how your comment corrected my historical comment.

What is chibudi? and what form does ti take in Okinawan karate?

Chibudi is what you might know better as Kyusho or Dim Mak.

To the bold - it is the foundation. Ti or Ti'gwa is the indigenous percussive impart art of Okinawa. It's the reason we use closed fists instead of all open hand techniques. It went hand in hand with Muto or Tegumi and Buki'gwa or Kobudo to make the fighting art that the ancient warriors used. It was influenced by Muay Boran and later by Quan Fa or Gung Fu and this is where "Karate" came from. Toudi which is the culmination of the arts listed above and Ti'gwa were both practiced on Okinawa. Very few arts especially what I would call Japanized arts understand or know these applications or techniques because the emphasis was on striking and physical fitness when the Japanese altered the art.

Having said that, it was altered prior to being introduced to the Japanese. Itosu altered it to make it available to commoners and school children.

I hope that answers your question without going into my typical novel size post. I'm rushed for time today.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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