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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2163
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to my previous post, to elaborate on why I don't freely give all my knowledge to my students.

When they progress, I tell them that there are some things that I will only give if they ask the right questions or if they are able to understand what it means.

And each and every one of them understands that when I ask something that may be oddly obscure or even extremely personal, that there is something that they can learn or should ask about.

One of the biggest questions I will ask any student is "Who does it feel to you?". Which for me, when they answer will either show me that they 1) have listened and learnt what I have taught them, 2) listened to their mind, body and spirit and 3) whether they can learn from it.

I don't care if I ask it when it comes to Kihon, Kata, Kumite OR even something the we all do everyday in class like bowing in or out.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6000
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in the UK, the words "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is written around the edges of our £2 coins.

It comes from a letter Isaac Newton wrote about how all of his achievements would not have been possible if not for the achievements and knowledge of those gone before him:

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

I think this is true for martial arts too. If we hold back knowledge we risk part of it dying with us. For me personally I want to see my students surpass me and build upon what I know.


MatsuShinshii wrote:
So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?

So I would still continue to teach them everything I know. Why? Because either they quit anyway and go on to other things. Or I just might spark something in them to turn them into that enthusiastic student that gives 100%.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1863


PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Here in the UK, the words "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is written around the edges of our £2 coins.

It comes from a letter Isaac Newton wrote about how all of his achievements would not have been possible if not for the achievements and knowledge of those gone before him:

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

I think this is true for martial arts too. If we hold back knowledge we risk part of it dying with us. For me personally I want to see my students surpass me and build upon what I know.


MatsuShinshii wrote:
So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?

So I would still continue to teach them everything I know. Why? Because either they quit anyway and go on to other things. Or I just might spark something in them to turn them into that enthusiastic student that gives 100%.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Here in the UK, the words "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is written around the edges of our £2 coins.

It comes from a letter Isaac Newton wrote about how all of his achievements would not have been possible if not for the achievements and knowledge of those gone before him:

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

I think this is true for martial arts too. If we hold back knowledge we risk part of it dying with us. For me personally I want to see my students surpass me and build upon what I know.


MatsuShinshii wrote:
So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?

So I would still continue to teach them everything I know. Why? Because either they quit anyway and go on to other things. Or I just might spark something in them to turn them into that enthusiastic student that gives 100%.



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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 367
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?


If they came to learn from me with such an attitude, and it did not change by the time I tested them for their entry belt; they would not make it any further regardless. I am not a commercial teacher; I instruct for the pleasure of it, and because of my passion for karate. What this means, is that people get a trial period to demonstrate that they are the correct fit for my group.

The only answer I can give is that I give them my 100% as a teacher until they are no longer my student. I do not teach a style or a syllabus per se; I just teach karate, so it is hard to say whether I am passing on full knowledge because that is rather nebulous in my case. I just pass on all I can, and try to give my students the knowledge that fits their goals and needs.

This question essentially sums up why I got out of teaching commercially.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?


If they came to learn from me with such an attitude, and it did not change by the time I tested them for their entry belt; they would not make it any further regardless. I am not a commercial teacher; I instruct for the pleasure of it, and because of my passion for karate. What this means, is that people get a trial period to demonstrate that they are the correct fit for my group.

The only answer I can give is that I give them my 100% as a teacher until they are no longer my student. I do not teach a style or a syllabus per se; I just teach karate, so it is hard to say whether I am passing on full knowledge because that is rather nebulous in my case. I just pass on all I can, and try to give my students the knowledge that fits their goals and needs.

This question essentially sums up why I got out of teaching commercially.


I can appreciate where you are coming from as I too teach for the love of the art and not as a career.

For me passing on 100% of my knowledge is easy and then again not so easy. As far as "syllabus" is concerned, this is the easy part as all that is contained within the Kata is our syllabus and all is passed on. As far as the research and knowledge I have gained over the last 4 decades is harder to answer as they would have to read what I have read, experience what I have experienced and see what I have seen to gain absolute insight. Having said that I try to pass on the knowledge I have compiled without forcing them to read over 2000 books and manuals, contact over 80 instructors of other arts, study (and I use this term loosely as I am not sure I can actually define it as study when you are looking for specifics or to learn a specific form, Hsing, Kata to gain insight) 13 arts, and experience 40 years of experiences.

I feel that we as teachers have an obligation to pass on the art to the next generation so that the art can survive as it was taught to us. I think the most important thing that is passed on is the art as it was passed down to us unaltered. If we can add to that based on our experiences and personal knowledge and study, this would be an added bonus. But the art itself must be the main focus.

I think that it is even more important these days with every teacher wanting to place their personal preferences and whims on the art. Most have gone the way of sport, a larger portion have gone the way of philosophy and sport and there are very few that maintain the integrity of the original art as it was passed down to them. Give it 100 more years and you will probably not even recognize the art as a combative art but more of a hybrid sport mixed with philosophy and virtually zero viable combative applications whatsoever.

To me the way I show my gratitude to the generations that passed down the founders art is to teach it as it was taught to me. I know I don't have much company in my old fashion views but this is what I believe whether others agree or not. To me, seeing the next generation carry on what has given so much to me is the only real way I can show my appreciation to my teachers and for the art that has for more than 3/4 of my life time given me so much.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 367
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur to an extent; I try to pass the kata on as I was taught them, and to make sure they are practiced as I taught them. With some allowance for necessary personal touches. However, I also believe flexibility, and adaptation to the era and the needs of the student are required as well.

it is striking that balance which I believe is most difficult; especially in a commercial school. Ego, does of course play a part in it, as people believe they know better than those that came before them, or want to make their mark on history. As long as the essence of the art is preserved, and it's context understood, and changes not made without consulting the past; then change is a good thing, or at worst, a necessary evil to keep the art alive if ever changing.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 13594
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When do you turn over full knowledge?

Day one!!

The transition begins at day one, and only ends when the student ceases to be a student, or you, as the CI, decide for one reason or another.

Do I know everything?? Of course not!! Do I know everything about Shindokan?? Of course not!!

The latter statement above might have one do a double take with a..."Huh??"

Yes, my knowledge base of Shindokan is without an equal within the SKKA/Hombu. However, I never did a Vulcan Mind Meld with Soke or Dai-Soke so that I could learn about those things that were still in the recesses of their minds.

Dai-Soke was taken from us with still a lot to teach, and this includes those of us who were part of the Higher Hierarchy as well as those who were part of his very inner circle.

While a student from day one will not be receiving full knowledge, after all, it's day one, but the full knowledge is within me, and in time, I will hand over my full knowledge to my Student Body piecemeal.

Will I ever have a Menkyo Kaiden type of my own?? No, that's not of my interest. I do have a student of mine who's earned a Nanadan this year. Albeit, there will be no naming of a Menkyo Kaiden type from me. Why?? It's just a label, and I feel it's meaningless and/or pointless.



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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
I concur to an extent; I try to pass the kata on as I was taught them, and to make sure they are practiced as I taught them. With some allowance for necessary personal touches. However, I also believe flexibility, and adaptation to the era and the needs of the student are required as well.

it is striking that balance which I believe is most difficult; especially in a commercial school. Ego, does of course play a part in it, as people believe they know better than those that came before them, or want to make their mark on history. As long as the essence of the art is preserved, and it's context understood, and changes not made without consulting the past; then change is a good thing, or at worst, a necessary evil to keep the art alive if ever changing.


I can respect that.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1585

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought that often comes to mind is this: A teacher may make every effort to teach everything possible, but the student may or may not be able, or ready to fully understand what is being taught at the time it is taught. This, despite the teacher’s intention to give full and complete knowledge.

A student may not be able to “know” a concept until much longer after being taught and only “get it” later. This is why many practise for years and then one day realize “so, this is what sensei meant”.
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