When do you turn over full knowledge?

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

In talking with a friend in a different art the topic of, when to teach all that you know and turn over the full knowledge of the art to your students, came up.

I found this both interesting and perplexing because I have never considered holding anything back from a student. I teach all that I know in hopes that the next generation will choose to teach and continue to pass this knowledge down to the next generation so that the art will continue to be as it was passed down to me.

I guess this revolves around the Japanese customs of holding back until a successor is chosen. For me nothing is held back. There is a sequence of knowledge transmission in that the knowledge is passed on as the student advances within the art. Example - I do not teach Yondan Kata, Applications, techniques, etc. to Hachikyu. The knowledge is given as they advance and as they can handle it. However nothing is ever held back. Ever!

If the student is worthy enough to teach in the first place then they are worthy of all knowledge. If they are not then I fail to see why I would waste my time teaching them in the first place or keep them as a student.

My question is do you teach all that you know, holding nothing back as they advance?

If you do withhold knowledge can you give a reason for this and what the conditions are?
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

Lupin1 · Black Belt

I don't understand why you would ever hold things back. That sounds like ego to me.

I think my instructor would say that "full knowledge" of an art comes from within after decades of practice. It's not something that's passed on to you. An instructor should teach the students everything, but really knowing the art is something the student does for themself.

Nidan Melbourne · KF Sempai

Do I hold things back from my students?

Of course I do! As I want them to go read, learn and have multiple sources.

Why?

Because there are somethings in Martial Arts that you can't give to a student. Like how things are supposed to feel or if they will work or not for them.

Do I still teach students as they progress?

I still teach them what I can, be it part of the curriculum or not.

Why do I hold things back?

For me it is to allow students to explore what Karate or Martial Arts in General means to them. I cannot dictate this for them, if they see it as a deeply personal thing then I am happy for them. But on the same hand if they see it as a logical form of expression then they can do so.

singularity6 · Pre-Black Belt

Sometimes folks get carried away in my TKD class with explanations or demonstrations.

Example:

We learn a basic wrist release. Practice it twice... Then the black belt who's working with us spends 10 minutes showing off all techniques that could come from what we learned. That's 10 minutes of class time that I won't get back, and it was pretty much wasted, as I retained very little of what was said, and did not get to practice the basic thing I was taught.

As I've mentioned before, I teach math at a community college for a living. I was hired to teach the lower level classes (pre algebra, basic algebra, etc.) Could you imagine if I went "Full Knowledge" on students who were learning fractions? Give them a taste of some calculus? Or how about a treatment of smooth manifolds in R^n? Even better... Ramble on about why a closed convex hull of a set in a topological vector space is important. I think I'd lose them pretty quick. I'd love to talk about it, as I'm starting to forget it all! But alas, I can't.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)

Tempest · Green Belt

I don't think it is possible to teach EVERYTHING you know, as if you are really pursuing the art actively, you are constantly learning more.

That said, I tend to teach to the curriculum until students have a good grasp on the basic form of a technique, then it is all about personalizing it to that student.

Part of the reason for this is that I want each student to find their tokui waza, their favorite technique.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

Wastelander · KF Sensei

Obviously, material has to be taught in a certain progression in order for understanding to really be developed, but I don't consider that holding back. If someone asks a question that would result in an explanation they may not be able to understand, I'll still show them, or at least give a basic explanation, and tell them that we will build up to that eventually. Personally, I think the "hold things back until a successor is chosen" is a bad idea. The situation with Oyata Sensei and Logue Sensei, for modern example.
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Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

I wasn't necessarily speaking in terms of natural progression in the art. Obviously we teach based on a natural progression (whatever that may be for your art) and we hold back knowledge contained in higher arts until they reach this level and can understand and are ready to absorb/learn this knowledge. This is also based on skill level and physical ability that takes time to develop. So I understand that we all hold back to some degree based on the progression of the art.

I also understand that we are constantly learning and that a student has to come to some conclusions for themselves.

I was speaking in a more broad sense. If you hold a body of knowledge containing, we'll say, 1000 techniques/applications that make up your art, in the natural progression of your art would you teach the student all 1000 techniques/applications or would you hold, lets say, 10 or 20 back? If so why?

I am also speaking in terms of personal discovery. Students have to be analytical thinkers and discover how things fit on their own so they can develop. All things can not be handed to them. However I feel that at this point in a students journey we become more of a guide than a teacher. In a sense we help the student navigate with little hints or nudges in the right direction so that they can find their path. This also I would ask if any of you would hold back from helping when the path no longer seems clear and guide them or would you let them falter until they discovered this for themselves if they ever do?

This whole concept of holding back doesn't make sense to me in that I believe that our students are the next carriers of the flame. My job is to transfer that flame to them so they can carry it forward and continue the never ending passing of the flame. Essentially teaching the art and passing on all knowledge so that the next generation can continue the art and pass it on to the next. Preservation of the art more or less.

So in my mind I will never understand holding anything back. If a student is worthy, in my eyes, of teaching then they are worthy of all knowledge that I can pass to them and worthy of me helping them to develop the skills and to guide them when it is time for them to discover their way.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

A thought just occurred to me that maybe this is a business decision. Maybe the student that pays the most gets taught the most. Too cynical?

Again the concept escapes me.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

I'd say there are a couple of caveats to this. I obviously can't hand everything on to a white belt, but I can do my best to prepare that white belt for the rank requirements and anything else I judge he/she is ready for.

Talking black belts, I can't think of any time I'd consider holding anything back. If a high rank shows more interest in class and out of class, I tend to work with them a little extra, mainly because they are coming forward and expressing an interest outside of class. Sometimes its easier to cover some things in more informal settings.

But, I can't think of any time that I've looked at one student and thought, "I'll teach him all of it," and looked at another student and thought, "I'm not going to give this one as much." I've never done that before.
_________________
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Spartacus Maximus · Black Belt

There are several reasons why an instructor might hold back on teaching something. One is that teaching must follow a progression and attempting to teach everything at once is not a very effective or practical way to teach. It is a much better strategy to focus on what the student’s level of skill and understanding allows.

Some instructors only teach the most fundamental and basic principles and expect their students to discover variations and details through training. Others will cover these concepts in depth whenever they judge the student has the level required.

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