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vantheman
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Posts: 249

Styles: Chinese Kempo Karate, Brazilian Jujitsu

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For you personal desire to learn weapons/kobudo, I'd say start training weapons when you want to. Within your particular style and dojo, this tends to be up to the instructor.

In the kempo I practice, which has been, for lack of a better term "modernized and streamline" with focus more on combative technique (supplemented with forms and more traditional stuff), weapon training is completely optional: we use it primarily for demonstrations or person desire to study kobudo art (although it can be done on a test if the student whites to perform it for test proctors).

As far as an objectively "proper" time to begin weapons training, there tend to be two different camps/schools of thought:

The pragmatic/practical/Okinawan principle states that you should actually learn kobudo (weapons training) before karate (hand training). Their philosophy on the matter is quite straightforward: an untrained person with a weapon can still somewhat easily overcome an trained "expert" in empty hand combat (we still see that today: if a man with a gun or knife comes after a skilled martial artist, there is a decent likelihood the armed individual will come out on top). As such, in an "ideal" situation, the Okinawan would have some form of weapon at all times and would only use karate if the weapon broke, got away from him, etc.

The ideal/Chinese/personal mastery argument is that because the weapons are so much more deadly and powerful than the empty hand, they ought not be taught until the student has demonstrated that he/she can handle the responsibility of unarmed techniques before they are given even more power (sort of follows the "great power, great responsibility cliche). From those Chinese Martial artist with whom I've trained, it appears the actual progression of weapon training also follow this (less deadly weapons like staves are trained before swords, etc.)
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Kempo Karate, Sandan
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straightblast
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 136

Styles: close quarter combat

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the FMA world weapons are the primary in the art and empty hand secondary. Very beginner students swing sticks from day one with no issues. within 6 months to a year the tip of your rattan stick will be traveling way faster that a fist or kick and the awareness, footwork and reaction time trickles down to your empty hand to where is almost like slowmotion.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. I am surprised. I get to start hanbo with the rest of the class.
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"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

straightblast wrote:
In the FMA world weapons are the primary in the art and empty hand secondary. Very beginner students swing sticks from day one with no issues. within 6 months to a year the tip of your rattan stick will be traveling way faster that a fist or kick and the awareness, footwork and reaction time trickles down to your empty hand to where is almost like slowmotion.


That's the only trickle down theory I can get behind.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We allow our students to start weapons training (Rokushaku) at Sankyu.
I do not teach kids but as a personal rule I would not start teaching Kobudo to anyone under the age of 16.
Maturity goes a long way when placing a weapon in someones hand.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.
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"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was an interesting thread. Seeing that most weapons martial artists train in are merely extensions of our bodies, it would make sense if we started weapon training once we were comfortable with using our body. Some students start training with fans at yellow belt for competition purposes. Other weapons are generally reserved for blue or red belts.
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(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2134


PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA


Do I think she is too young to dance with a blunt sword?
No. People do tumbling and dance at her age all the time. A "sword", and I am 99% sure that it was a blunt on stage during her performance, is just a weirdly shaped baton in this case.

Calling that a "Display of swordsmanship" is the same as calling the story of Beowulf "Great history", it is a story, and it is great, but calling it history isn't quite right.

She did a display, and there was a sword, but calling it swordsmanship is a bit much.

That being said, if she demonstrated test cutting with a sharp and another person holding the cutting medium, as long as she demonstrated proper maturity, demeanor, and weapons handling etiquette, it would be fine with me.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA


Not to be corrective but that is not swordsmanship. That is meant to impress the crowd. I take nothing away from her performance. I'll even give her high kudo's for her athleticism but that is not the proper use of the sword.

For one - if you watch closely at the angle of the blade in respect to the angle of the arms, they are not aligned. The sword would be striking at an angle and thus cut nothing. For two - she is using it as if it were a modern rendition of the use of nunchaku. This is "Xtreme" martial arts were they make kata specifically for the WOW factor. There is nothing about that performance that says she knows how to accurately use a sword or that she has learned real Kenjutsu or Iaido.

And as Tempest said it's a blunt sword. And I'll agree that it is a dance because none of what she did came from an actual representation of battle tested applications when utilizing an actual Shinken. Flailing a sword shaped device while flipping and doing somersaults is very impressive but I will not call that swordsmanship because it's not.

So yes she is too young to put a real Shinken in her hands especially doing what she is doing.
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