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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA


Not to be corrective but that is not swordsmanship. That is meant to impress the crowd. I take nothing away from her performance. I'll even give her high kudo's for her athleticism but that is not the proper use of the sword.

For one - if you watch closely at the angle of the blade in respect to the angle of the arms, they are not aligned. The sword would be striking at an angle and thus cut nothing. For two - she is using it as if it were a modern rendition of the use of nunchaku. This is "Xtreme" martial arts were they make kata specifically for the WOW factor. There is nothing about that performance that says she knows how to accurately use a sword or that she has learned real Kenjutsu or Iaido.

And as Tempest said it's a blunt sword. And I'll agree that it is a dance because none of what she did came from an actual representation of battle tested applications when utilizing an actual Shinken. Flailing a sword shaped device while flipping and doing somersaults is very impressive but I will not call that swordsmanship because it's not.

So yes she is too young to put a real Shinken in her hands especially doing what she is doing.
So this just goes to show that those in power (Judges of Britains Got Talent) see but they are blind due to not knowing what they are looking at.

On the other hand it is a talent show and what looks great to them, is all they care about, as long as it contains originality, novelty with a pinch of the WOW factor; authenticity and technicalities are not entertaining prerequisites for the masses, as the show isn't based on reality.
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
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Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA


Not to be corrective but that is not swordsmanship. That is meant to impress the crowd. I take nothing away from her performance. I'll even give her high kudo's for her athleticism but that is not the proper use of the sword.

For one - if you watch closely at the angle of the blade in respect to the angle of the arms, they are not aligned. The sword would be striking at an angle and thus cut nothing. For two - she is using it as if it were a modern rendition of the use of nunchaku. This is "Xtreme" martial arts were they make kata specifically for the WOW factor. There is nothing about that performance that says she knows how to accurately use a sword or that she has learned real Kenjutsu or Iaido.

And as Tempest said it's a blunt sword. And I'll agree that it is a dance because none of what she did came from an actual representation of battle tested applications when utilizing an actual Shinken. Flailing a sword shaped device while flipping and doing somersaults is very impressive but I will not call that swordsmanship because it's not.

So yes she is too young to put a real Shinken in her hands especially doing what she is doing.
So this just goes to show that those in power (Judges of Britains Got Talent) see but they are blind due to not knowing what they are looking at.

On the other hand it is a talent show and what looks great to them, is all they care about, as long as it contains originality, novelty with a pinch of the WOW factor; authenticity and technicalities are not entertaining prerequisites for the masses, as the show isn't based on reality.


I would agree with that assessment.

It's a talent contest. Originality and Wow factor trumps everything else. And it should. Your trying to out do the next guy and it is not based on reality insomuch as it's based on what people want to see... Flashy, high flying and breathtaking wow factor. Do it and you win. It's the stage under which they compete. And you're right the judges see this and think, wow, I wouldn't want to mess with that little girl. But in reality the actions she is displaying (I will not call them techniques or applications) is exactly what they want to see but has no basis in reality when it comes to actual effective combat methodology.

This is part and parcel what you find at 90% of modern tournaments these days. The Wow factor trumps the intent and actual reality based techniques.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching these feats of athleticism. It's amazing and certainly takes years to learn. But the problem is the context in which people talk about it. When discussing something like this the comment always comes up that they are great examples of MA's, but it's not true MA. It's a staged performance with one goal in mind, to wow the judges and the audience. To say this has anything to do with real martial arts is ridiculous and false.

It's a sport not an art of self defense. Nothing they do translates to the street. Whens the last time you say someone do a triple back flip and roll to a flying front kick to a multitude of high machine gun kicks on the streets? You haven't because it's for show not for actual combative situations.

If you attempted this your ancestors would feel the beating you got. It's just for show kinda like Hollywood's version of war vs actual war. The two do not translate. You can't fire a shoulder fired rocket inside of a helicopter cockpit and live to talk about it. But in Hollywood Rambo walks away and so do all of the POW's in the back of the Helo. Not in real life.

Flash sells which is why so many promote this. But make no mistake this is not MA.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2134


PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
How about a nine year old with a samurai sword; is she too young for this display of swordsmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjGQB9BKWA


Not to be corrective but that is not swordsmanship. That is meant to impress the crowd. I take nothing away from her performance. I'll even give her high kudo's for her athleticism but that is not the proper use of the sword.

For one - if you watch closely at the angle of the blade in respect to the angle of the arms, they are not aligned. The sword would be striking at an angle and thus cut nothing. For two - she is using it as if it were a modern rendition of the use of nunchaku. This is "Xtreme" martial arts were they make kata specifically for the WOW factor. There is nothing about that performance that says she knows how to accurately use a sword or that she has learned real Kenjutsu or Iaido.

And as Tempest said it's a blunt sword. And I'll agree that it is a dance because none of what she did came from an actual representation of battle tested applications when utilizing an actual Shinken. Flailing a sword shaped device while flipping and doing somersaults is very impressive but I will not call that swordsmanship because it's not.

So yes she is too young to put a real Shinken in her hands especially doing what she is doing.
So this just goes to show that those in power (Judges of Britains Got Talent) see but they are blind due to not knowing what they are looking at.

On the other hand it is a talent show and what looks great to them, is all they care about, as long as it contains originality, novelty with a pinch of the WOW factor; authenticity and technicalities are not entertaining prerequisites for the masses, as the show isn't based on reality.


I would agree with that assessment.

It's a talent contest. Originality and Wow factor trumps everything else. And it should. Your trying to out do the next guy and it is not based on reality insomuch as it's based on what people want to see... Flashy, high flying and breathtaking wow factor. Do it and you win. It's the stage under which they compete. And you're right the judges see this and think, wow, I wouldn't want to mess with that little girl. But in reality the actions she is displaying (I will not call them techniques or applications) is exactly what they want to see but has no basis in reality when it comes to actual effective combat methodology.

This is part and parcel what you find at 90% of modern tournaments these days. The Wow factor trumps the intent and actual reality based techniques.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching these feats of athleticism. It's amazing and certainly takes years to learn. But the problem is the context in which people talk about it. When discussing something like this the comment always comes up that they are great examples of MA's, but it's not true MA. It's a staged performance with one goal in mind, to wow the judges and the audience. To say this has anything to do with real martial arts is ridiculous and false.

It's a sport not an art of self defense. Nothing they do translates to the street. Whens the last time you say someone do a triple back flip and roll to a flying front kick to a multitude of high machine gun kicks on the streets? You haven't because it's for show not for actual combative situations.

If you attempted this your ancestors would feel the beating you got. It's just for show kinda like Hollywood's version of war vs actual war. The two do not translate. You can't fire a shoulder fired rocket inside of a helicopter cockpit and live to talk about it. But in Hollywood Rambo walks away and so do all of the POW's in the back of the Helo. Not in real life.

Flash sells which is why so many promote this. But make no mistake this is not MA.
Cannot agree with you more; as you are spot on, great observation skills you have MatsuShinshii.

I have been told by a CI recently, that I am too much reality based; as if there is a problem being this way.
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
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Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not telling me anything I haven't seen or heard before. It's the sad state of Modern Karate. Sport based over reality based.
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: When is a good time to start weapons training? Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
I know this is can be complex question, and I plan to start after I feel I am grounded enough in non-weapons training. I was just looking for a ballpark answer. I am testing for yellow belt in Karate this month and I have been training since February.

Of course I am looking forward to training with weapons, and currently considering the bo staff, knife, escrima, and tonfa. I will choose one. I can only envision myself rupturing a testicle and needing stitches in my head if I chose nunchuks. My past weapons training is pistol focused.


Ok, I know this is an old post, but in my opinion, the best time to start weapons training is right after you choose the weapon you want to train with.
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have an age or maturity requirement? Are you ok with a student picking Nichogama, Yari, Nuntibo, Sai, Rochen or any other bladed weapon first before learning blunt weapons like Rokushaku or Tuifa?

Beginner adults scare me with a weapon in their hand but kids with weapons scare me more.

I have seen the "mistakes" and "accidents" caused by new students from fellow students being struck to a weapon flying across the floor to weapons stuck in ceilings and walls.

I personally think that it is up to the instructors discretion when it comes to putting a weapon in a novices hands. I think that at minimum a student should at least get through the first 3 to four grades and demonstrate control without a weapon before being allowed to start training with one. Their maturity level should also be a concern to the instructor. Even a trained student with years of Buki (Kobudo) training can make a mistake and we all know accidents happen but as instructors I feel it a responsibility to make sure that the student is competent before allowing them to swing sticks next to each other much less bladed weapons.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think putting a weapon in a student's hand and starting soon will help them learn control with the weapon, much like empty hand. I don't think that it is necessary to have to learn some form of empty hand combat prior to learning a weapon. I think one could start learning stick combat right away, and it would become beneficial very early on. As long as the instructor has the ability to teach it, then he should do so early.

As for age/maturity, an instructor can base that as he or she sees fit.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you have an age or maturity requirement?

The SKKA does have it's requirements. However, the CI has the final discretion.

Quote:
Are you ok with a student picking Nichogama, Yari, Nuntibo, Sai, Rochen or any other bladed weapon first before learning blunt weapons like Rokushaku or Tuifa?

No, not even in the slightest am I ok with that. Crawl...walk...run, in that order, and it's that way for a very good reason(s).



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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Quote:
Do you have an age or maturity requirement?

The SKKA does have it's requirements. However, the CI has the final discretion.

Quote:
Are you ok with a student picking Nichogama, Yari, Nuntibo, Sai, Rochen or any other bladed weapon first before learning blunt weapons like Rokushaku or Tuifa?

No, not even in the slightest am I ok with that. Crawl...walk...run, in that order, and it's that way for a very good reason(s).




Great analogy. And that should be the natural progression when dealing with students and weapons.

IMO students should start out with wooden/blunt weapons first. This reduces the dangers to others and themselves due to the lack of coordination, skill, grip strength, body/weapon/object awareness and muscle conditioning.

I am not saying that a beginner does not have the bare minimum skills to wield a weapon. Any one untrained can pick up a weapon and swing it around. But that is not what we are talking about. There are specific movements/actions required when learning the Kata and these are not always the bodies natural movements and can be quite foriegn. The body must adjust to moving a specified way just like it must in empty hand Kata. The muscles fatigue faster when performing movement unaccustomed to it's natural movements. If the student is unaccustomed to the length of the weapon and how it moves/reacts they will not have the required spacial awareness of the weapon in relationship to their own body much less the relationship of the weapon and objects or people around them.

We have all (or maybe just me ) struck ourselves with Nunchaku while learning how to utilize the weapon. This is in large part to understanding how the weapon reacts when using it to strike or even to transition. This comes with time and constant practice. Can you imagine what would happen if you put Nichogama in a beginners hands just because that was the weapon they picked??????

I think we have all seen a weapon or two fly across the Dojo floor, get stuck in a wall, ceiling or strike a fellow student or even the instructor or strike the user.

The reason I feel empty hand training is useful, but I will concede not necessary, is because it starts to develop some of the muscles that will be utilized, starts to develop spacial awareness, develops depth perception in knowing distance, and give a degree of control and skill to the student before putting something in the hands of a novice that could potentially injure themselves or by-standards.

And if you do I would implore you to start them with weapons that, at least in the learning phase, will do less damage to the user and others like Rokushaku, Tuifa, and maybe even Nunchaku although I feel this should not be a starting weapon, but that only my opinion. Accidents will happen, the user will loose control of the weapon, they will fatigue or will be unaware of other around them or the relationship of the weapon to themselves or others. This all apart of learning and we all go through this however there is a degree of damage control that I think the instructors are responsible for.

Obviously we will all decide when a student is ready for weapons training. But deciding if the student is capable is not the same as whether the student is ready. In my opinion there are many factors to consider as stated but the big one as others have mentioned is maturity. Should you allow them to start weapons training. I feel this is the decision of the instructor and with that they carry the responsibility for not only the student but also those around that student. Meaning if the student lacks coordination in empty hand Kata, has no control or has the maturity level of a 3 year old you probably shouldn't put a weapon in there hands.

There is my 2 cents for what that is worth.
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XtremeTrainer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: When is a good time to start weapons training? Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
I know this is can be complex question, and I plan to start after I feel I am grounded enough in non-weapons training. I was just looking for a ballpark answer. I am testing for yellow belt in Karate this month and I have been training since February.

Of course I am looking forward to training with weapons, and currently considering the bo staff, knife, escrima, and tonfa. I will choose one. I can only envision myself rupturing a testicle and needing stitches in my head if I chose nunchuks. My past weapons training is pistol focused.


That would depend and it would depend not only on the practitioner but also on the style. In most styles you start out learning unarmed fighting and then later on learn weapons but there are styles where its the other way around. With filipino stick fighting for instance you start out on day one learning to fight with weapons and you don't start learning unarmed fighting until you become very advanced in stick fighting. But it depends on the style and it depends on the practitioner. I've been training in the martial arts for close to 30 years and its been relatively recently when I seriously got into TMA weapons training. I've been training with the jo staff, bokken, sais, and katana. But that's just me, some people start weapons training much earlier than I did.
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